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New Saab 9-5 (2010 on) / Re: Another Ng 9-5 joins the forum
« on: 13 May 2024, 11:39:02 PM »
Some of those are quite expensive! But may seem cheap if Hedin come up with an "official" repair.
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New Saab 9-5 (2010 on) / Re: Another Ng 9-5 joins the forum
« on: 13 May 2024, 09:27:47 PM »
It's a shame that the 9-5 was a short lived model. The light bar would surely have been improved as time went on.
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Saab 9-3 Sport Saloon / Convertible / Combi (Wagon/Estate) / Turbo X / AWD (2003 on) / Re: 93 V6 fuel pressure release.
« on: 13 May 2024, 09:20:12 PM »
He probably could, but I'm planning to get under and apply a full underseal later. Just no time this month for a longer job. I won't be starting it before I get back from Trollhättan on 10th June.
The issue has been a bit more difficult today. I cleared the codes on Friday. OH has been using the car while I've been at Saab meets on Saturday and Sunday. There's no code come back yet. Not even a Pending code, and they were coming back almost immediately last week :roll: Just a wait and see now. The last time the codes went off for a period, it was two years before they returned...
The issue has been a bit more difficult today. I cleared the codes on Friday. OH has been using the car while I've been at Saab meets on Saturday and Sunday. There's no code come back yet. Not even a Pending code, and they were coming back almost immediately last week :roll: Just a wait and see now. The last time the codes went off for a period, it was two years before they returned...
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Saab 9-3 Sport Saloon / Convertible / Combi (Wagon/Estate) / Turbo X / AWD (2003 on) / Re: 93 V6 fuel pressure release.
« on: 13 May 2024, 02:42:33 PM »
I went down to Swedish Day and spoke to Joe, the mechanic who is doing theMOT and service next week. He suggested that I shouldn't rule out a poor connection, so I went out to try and locate the connector on the front edge of the fuel tank. I think i have found it, but I'm not sure. It will only be readily accessible by removing the under tray and getting under the car. The connector I have found looks exposed and ripe for a poor connection, but although it's in the right place and the blue/white wire in the end corner pin looks OK, there is no wire in the the adjacent hole. Which is not matching the wiring diagram in WIS.
I won't have time to do a full check as I'm quite busy between now and the MOT time. As long as the car passes, I will deal with it later. Get the car in the air and do the undersealing at the same time. It looks like the underseal is needed
I won't have time to do a full check as I'm quite busy between now and the MOT time. As long as the car passes, I will deal with it later. Get the car in the air and do the undersealing at the same time. It looks like the underseal is needed
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Saab 9-3 Sport Saloon / Convertible / Combi (Wagon/Estate) / Turbo X / AWD (2003 on) / Re: 93 V6 fuel pressure release.
« on: 11 May 2024, 07:58:28 AM »
I’ve been using E5 all the time. The Saab sticker on the filler flap says 98. We usually use Tesco Momentum 99, occasionally the Premium 97 from Costco if there’s no queue.
I found the Saabcentral one late last night. I was amused by some of the total ignorance. One guy suggesting that you replace the fuel system with a “normal” pump in the fuel line and abandoning the original system. How that would work in a PWM system designed for injector control with variable presssure is interesting…
I also saw some Vauxhall comments, but they were mostly associated with diesel engines.
If I have time next week, I may make a final throw at the 10 pin connector said to be by the fuel tank. If it’s in any way exposed it may be in the same condition as the connector on the rear headlight levelling sensor on the 9-5!
I found the WIS a bit confusing in that it mentions a pressure sensor on the pump itself. I think that’s an EVAP sensor that’s only fitted to American cars.
I found the Saabcentral one late last night. I was amused by some of the total ignorance. One guy suggesting that you replace the fuel system with a “normal” pump in the fuel line and abandoning the original system. How that would work in a PWM system designed for injector control with variable presssure is interesting…
I also saw some Vauxhall comments, but they were mostly associated with diesel engines.
If I have time next week, I may make a final throw at the 10 pin connector said to be by the fuel tank. If it’s in any way exposed it may be in the same condition as the connector on the rear headlight levelling sensor on the 9-5!
I found the WIS a bit confusing in that it mentions a pressure sensor on the pump itself. I think that’s an EVAP sensor that’s only fitted to American cars.
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Saab 9-3 Sport Saloon / Convertible / Combi (Wagon/Estate) / Turbo X / AWD (2003 on) / Re: 93 V6 fuel pressure release.
« on: 10 May 2024, 11:23:37 PM »
Looking at the dates and comments, it looks like the P0089 is a general V6 problem and not just the XWD. The two use different fuel pumps. Whether they are materially different or just slightly modified to suit the XWD circulation, I don't know.
Some of those with problems reported poor performance. Our car is driving well.
The graph shows sudden drops which suggest to be that there's an electrical problem, or something sticking suddenly.
I think that as long as it gets through the MOT in two weeks, I will put this on hold for a month. If I do that, I will have been to the Saab Museum Festival in Sweden. Maybe there are some brains to pick there?
Summing up the thoughts.
Pump could be faulty - certainly the level gauge attached to it is broken.
The pump control module may be faulty. There are none available anywhere that I can see. I might send it to ECU testing to see if they can check it.
There might be a loose wire or connection in the power feed, but if this is the case I would expect the fault to show every trip as the car goes over bumps.
Possibly an injector sticking and allowing fuel to flow freely to discharge into the cylinder - no back pressure in lay terms.
I thought that the fuel recirculation leak could cause this if there's an issue, but there are no moving parts, so unlikely to be intermittent.
I had the fault twice before, in 2020 and 2021, and cleaning the fuel rail/injectors seemed to clear it. It's not doing it this time.
Do Vauxhall/ Holden have the same issue? A desktop check is needed...
Some of those with problems reported poor performance. Our car is driving well.
The graph shows sudden drops which suggest to be that there's an electrical problem, or something sticking suddenly.
I think that as long as it gets through the MOT in two weeks, I will put this on hold for a month. If I do that, I will have been to the Saab Museum Festival in Sweden. Maybe there are some brains to pick there?
Summing up the thoughts.
Pump could be faulty - certainly the level gauge attached to it is broken.
The pump control module may be faulty. There are none available anywhere that I can see. I might send it to ECU testing to see if they can check it.
There might be a loose wire or connection in the power feed, but if this is the case I would expect the fault to show every trip as the car goes over bumps.
Possibly an injector sticking and allowing fuel to flow freely to discharge into the cylinder - no back pressure in lay terms.
I thought that the fuel recirculation leak could cause this if there's an issue, but there are no moving parts, so unlikely to be intermittent.
I had the fault twice before, in 2020 and 2021, and cleaning the fuel rail/injectors seemed to clear it. It's not doing it this time.
Do Vauxhall/ Holden have the same issue? A desktop check is needed...
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Off-topic chat, Help, Advice, General motoring issues / Re: What I Did To My Saab Today.
« on: 10 May 2024, 09:05:07 PM »
Well done! 
The Carlsson goes in for the MOT in 10 days.
The Carlsson goes in for the MOT in 10 days.
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Saab 9-3 Sport Saloon / Convertible / Combi (Wagon/Estate) / Turbo X / AWD (2003 on) / Re: 93 V6 fuel pressure release.
« on: 10 May 2024, 08:28:39 PM »
Next stage...
I ran the Tech2 Control Module Test. I'll do it again next week as I'm not sure I set it up 100% correctly. But results are as follows. Anyone know how to interpret them?
Stage No: WIS figure.... My reading.
1: 1.9............. 1.2
2: 2.0............. 1.2
3: 2.3-2.6....... 1.9
4: 2.5-3.3....... 2.4
5: 2.7-4.0....... 3.0
6: 2.8-4.8....... 3.5
7: 2.8-4.8....... 4.0
8: 2.9-4.9....... 4.4
9: 2.9-4.9....... 4.5
10:2.9-4.9....... 4.6
Early readings seem a bit low, but WIS says the figures are a guide only.
If the control module is faulty. They are no longer available.
And the next issue... working under the bonnet highlighted the fact that the brake vacuum pump is very noisy
I ran the Tech2 Control Module Test. I'll do it again next week as I'm not sure I set it up 100% correctly. But results are as follows. Anyone know how to interpret them?
Stage No: WIS figure.... My reading.
1: 1.9............. 1.2
2: 2.0............. 1.2
3: 2.3-2.6....... 1.9
4: 2.5-3.3....... 2.4
5: 2.7-4.0....... 3.0
6: 2.8-4.8....... 3.5
7: 2.8-4.8....... 4.0
8: 2.9-4.9....... 4.4
9: 2.9-4.9....... 4.5
10:2.9-4.9....... 4.6
Early readings seem a bit low, but WIS says the figures are a guide only.
If the control module is faulty. They are no longer available.
And the next issue... working under the bonnet highlighted the fact that the brake vacuum pump is very noisy
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Saab 9-3 Sport Saloon / Convertible / Combi (Wagon/Estate) / Turbo X / AWD (2003 on) / Re: 93 V6 fuel pressure release.
« on: 10 May 2024, 04:32:37 PM »
The pump control module in under the driver's seat. It's not where the WIS says it is, it's under the outside seat rail against the sill. See picture...
I ran the engine on tickover and got the pending code again. I stopped and had lunch, bt when I went back out to go shopping, the engine light came on before I had moved. I took a freeze frame of the event, but it didn't show a low fuel pressure. I cleared the code and went shopping. The app was set to record . On arrival 3 miles down the road, I had a pending code, but no full code and engine light. A graph of the fuel pressure during the trip attached below.
It looks like there were a couple of quick spikes taking the fuel pressure below 200KPa.
More investigation required. It may have to wait until next week. The 9-5 is going to the Ace cafe tomorrow and Swedish Day on Sunday.
I ran the engine on tickover and got the pending code again. I stopped and had lunch, bt when I went back out to go shopping, the engine light came on before I had moved. I took a freeze frame of the event, but it didn't show a low fuel pressure. I cleared the code and went shopping. The app was set to record . On arrival 3 miles down the road, I had a pending code, but no full code and engine light. A graph of the fuel pressure during the trip attached below.
It looks like there were a couple of quick spikes taking the fuel pressure below 200KPa.
More investigation required. It may have to wait until next week. The 9-5 is going to the Ace cafe tomorrow and Swedish Day on Sunday.
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Saab 9-3 Sport Saloon / Convertible / Combi (Wagon/Estate) / Turbo X / AWD (2003 on) / Re: 93 V6 fuel pressure release.
« on: 10 May 2024, 09:55:26 AM »
A further few thoughts to try and clarify my mind…
The code must be triggered by a mismatch between expectation and delivery. From the figures I can see on the app display, it seems the fuel pump can deliver 500 KPa, so why is it not managing 250 KPa?
From the graphs, any low reading recovers instantly, so the feedback seems to work. Therefore the pump must be OK.
I’m going to read more about the complicated pipe work arrangements in the tank that transfer fuel between the two sides of the saddleback tank. A leak in that pipe work could explain things, I think. The order of commands that would work would be something like…
Throttle is pressed.
More fuel is demanded.
ECU tells pump to increase pressure, which it does.
Demanded pressure is not seen at the sensor by the fuel rail and injectors.
Could this be a leak in the complicated tank recirculation system?
The counter argument is that, if there’s a leak, and the ECU increases pressure to meet the 500 KPa demand, why isn’t the higher pressure retained when the throttle is released, rather than dropping below 250KPa, if this is the issue.
The code must be triggered by a mismatch between expectation and delivery. From the figures I can see on the app display, it seems the fuel pump can deliver 500 KPa, so why is it not managing 250 KPa?
From the graphs, any low reading recovers instantly, so the feedback seems to work. Therefore the pump must be OK.
I’m going to read more about the complicated pipe work arrangements in the tank that transfer fuel between the two sides of the saddleback tank. A leak in that pipe work could explain things, I think. The order of commands that would work would be something like…
Throttle is pressed.
More fuel is demanded.
ECU tells pump to increase pressure, which it does.
Demanded pressure is not seen at the sensor by the fuel rail and injectors.
Could this be a leak in the complicated tank recirculation system?
The counter argument is that, if there’s a leak, and the ECU increases pressure to meet the 500 KPa demand, why isn’t the higher pressure retained when the throttle is released, rather than dropping below 250KPa, if this is the issue.
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Saab 9-3 Sport Saloon / Convertible / Combi (Wagon/Estate) / Turbo X / AWD (2003 on) / Re: 93 V6 fuel pressure release.
« on: 10 May 2024, 12:05:15 AM »
The software does a "freeze frame" when a full code is generated, with a load of values. I thought that I had stored it, but I couldn't find it later. I'll try tomorrow. It was where I got the number in the earlier post above.
There are various threads suggesting that cleaning the fuel rail cures the problem. I did that some while back and it seemed to work. Ive done it this time and it hasn't worked. One way the pressure could be low is if an injector is sticking open a bit, which would reduce the back pressure. I've seen some injector stuff, I'll look at that.
The confusing thing is that the car shows no sign of any fuel starvation. If the fuel pump is failing, surely it would show signs at full throttle? I may take the long way to Costco tomorrow and go down the M1.
There are various threads suggesting that cleaning the fuel rail cures the problem. I did that some while back and it seemed to work. Ive done it this time and it hasn't worked. One way the pressure could be low is if an injector is sticking open a bit, which would reduce the back pressure. I've seen some injector stuff, I'll look at that.
The confusing thing is that the car shows no sign of any fuel starvation. If the fuel pump is failing, surely it would show signs at full throttle? I may take the long way to Costco tomorrow and go down the M1.
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Off-topic chat, Help, Advice, General motoring issues / Re: What I Did To My Saab Today.
« on: 09 May 2024, 09:18:36 PM »
Today I gave the 9-5 a good clean and polish. First time for nearly a year! Lots of greenery growing in the crevices. Saturday is the Saab meet at the Ace Cafe, and Sunday is Swedish Day in Somerset. It's a bit depressing how many small dents and stone chips there are after nearly 18 years and 185,000 miles...
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Saab 9-3 Sport Saloon / Convertible / Combi (Wagon/Estate) / Turbo X / AWD (2003 on) / Re: 93 V6 fuel pressure release.
« on: 09 May 2024, 09:01:16 PM »
Well, I ran the engine for over 5 mins, with a couple of restarts and at the end there was a pending code P0089. No full code with engine light on yet. And the car was stationary. I was just trying to get a feel of what was going on with the reading. I was looking at moving graphs on the screen. The data attached only appeared when I shut everything down and downloaded it.
When I got the attached data (there's a lot!!) it seems that the seconds are counted from 0000hrs today. So if I run the app for a while, until an engine light appears, I should be able to match the time and see what was going on at that time.
Does anyone know what the data so far shows? Somewhere in there is a fault that triggered a pending code, although a pending code implies that some reading has exceeded the limits set by the engine designers, or got close to that figure, on a number of occasions. A bit like the pending misfire codes P1312 on the 9-5. The "fault" has to occur often enough in a set period to trigger a full engine light.
When I got the attached data (there's a lot!!) it seems that the seconds are counted from 0000hrs today. So if I run the app for a while, until an engine light appears, I should be able to match the time and see what was going on at that time.
Does anyone know what the data so far shows? Somewhere in there is a fault that triggered a pending code, although a pending code implies that some reading has exceeded the limits set by the engine designers, or got close to that figure, on a number of occasions. A bit like the pending misfire codes P1312 on the 9-5. The "fault" has to occur often enough in a set period to trigger a full engine light.
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Saab 9-3 Sport Saloon / Convertible / Combi (Wagon/Estate) / Turbo X / AWD (2003 on) / Re: 93 V6 fuel pressure release.
« on: 09 May 2024, 02:22:45 PM »
I have upgraded the Car Scanner to the full "Pro" version. It tells me that it can read the data from over 150 sensors, etc. I now have to think of which ones to monitor. I could try all of them, but I'm not sure I can really interpret them. We shall see...
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Saab 9-3 Sport Saloon / Convertible / Combi (Wagon/Estate) / Turbo X / AWD (2003 on) / Re: 93 V6 fuel pressure release.
« on: 08 May 2024, 08:24:01 PM »
They were all done stationary with engine ticking over. So rpm similar.
I will upgrade to the paid for version so I can save the results rather than trying to copy them at the time.
I will upgrade to the paid for version so I can save the results rather than trying to copy them at the time.