Engine warning light - loss of power

[davidguthrie]

Hello, just joined. Great forum!
My recently-acquired 9-3 Vector convertible (90,000 on the clock) has started giving me the engine warning light.  It came on as I was in 5th and accelerating from 65 mph on dual carriageway. I took it back to the dealer, who ran a cursory diagnostic test (but for a Vauxhall - no Saab in the gizmo) which indicated throttle control fault.
Now, the problem really only manifests itself in 1st and 2nd gears -  a distinct loss of power, so pulling away at a junction has to be timed particularly well! - but other than that, it runs fine.
The dealer did say that, prior to my purchase, the car hadn't been driven very much at all ('careful lady driver'!) so there might be crap in the throttle body.
The car is on a warranty, so should be diagnosed more thoroughly and presumably rectified, but I wanted to check whether this was a fault anyone else had experienced and what the diagnosis/outcome were and whether there were any other foibles I should look out for. (Also, just dipping me toes into STT waters, frankly.)

[sgould]

Welcome!

The best way to pin down the cause of an engine warning light is to get the error code read.  There will be one stored if the check engine light has come on.  Presumably the seller did this?  If so, did he tell you what it was?  There are many codes associated with the throttle control. It's all electronic.  There is a throttle body, an accelerator pedal sensor, any others. Trial and error in replacing things gets expensive.

If not, will be able to read most of them yourself with a cheap code reader.  It's a good investment and they start at around £15.  I have an "Autop D900" which is a bit more expensive, but not a lot.

Saab and GM cars use a special handheld computer called a "Tech2" which can do the code reading, but it can also read the Saab special codes and do lots of programming, etc.  But they are £££.

In general the cars are reliable and the engines and gearboxes are strong.  One thing to check is whether the the drain under the black panel in front of the windscreen is clear.  Unfasten the end on the passenger side and bend the panel up.  It's designed to bend, but be gentle in the cold weather.  The fresh air filter in under there too.  If the drain is blocked, water builds up and runs into the car through the heater fan and collects in the passenger footwell.

The only other things are knocks from the suspension.  Look at drop links and broken springs.  Broken springs seem common to all makes of car these days.

[Max Headroom]

Hi David

Good to see you here at last.

Sorry to hear you have some car problems though. Hopefully someone will be able to help you get it resolved quickly

[Audax]

I'd like to know the exact code that was found. However the throttle body on the 9-3 petrols does get gummed up over time and can give a rough idle so having it cleaned would be a good first step.

[Max Headroom]

Does putting 'superfuel' in such as BP Ultimate help de-gunk this?
When I was cruising my long commute to RAF Northolt, I used to stop and fill up at a cheap ASDA place in Wheatley. It was soon became apparent that my car ran roughly and just didn't perform as I was expecting it to.

I think it was the forums here where someone suggested not putting supermarket fuel in, so I switched to a Shell variant of Ultimate BP and almost instantly my running became much much smoother and quieter and the car far more pleasurable to drive.

[davidguthrie]

Many thanks to one and all.
The dealer did read off the code, but I forgot it - he will be getting this done by the garage next door anyway, but info from members is particularly valued by me. He did mention the throttle body's possibly being gunged up, as I said, and doubtless this will be cleaned. The garage will also have a more detailed readout. The dealer struck me as a decent fellow and all work will be covered under the warranty. (Never had a warranty on a £1700 car before!)
That's an interesting point about fuel quality. My favourite garage owner (John Cruden of Airbourne Motors in Ashington, for the benefit of NE members) on the subject of my late lamented 9-5 2.2TiD's problems lectured me on supermarket diesel, which apparently contains a high proportion of biodiesel, which is prone to enzyme growth and formation of a thick gunge in the fuel tank - snot, I suppose!
I now use only big-brand fuels and am tempted by the 'ultimate' types but put off by the 15p premium! So I think this will be an occasional treat for the 9-3!
I've now ordered a gizmo to read fault codes - mainly (and only if I'm confident they're not critical!) to clear them; this limp mode thing is a nuisance.
Thanks, SGould, for the other points: I shall check!
It's good to be in such a helpful group! And such swift replies!
AH! The sun's come out .... maybe it's time for a wee run out ....
Cheers!

[Audax]

Does putting 'superfuel' in such as BP Ultimate help de-gunk this?

No, it makes no difference at all as the throttle body plate is before the inlet manifold and fuel injection system.

[Audax]

I think it was the forums here where someone suggested not putting supermarket fuel in, so I switched to a Shell variant of Ultimate BP and almost instantly my running became much much smoother and quieter and the car far more pleasurable to drive.

If it did then there's something wrong with your car or you were using the lower grade of fuel Saab engines are designed to work on very low grades of fuel without issue, the main reason to use expensive fuel is that higher RON fuel will give better performance in a turbocharged engine and will probably give slightly improved economy to make up for the extra cost.

In my opinion the biggest reason to avoid using supermarket fuel is that the pumps at supermarkets always have queues 10 cars deep so people can save 1p-2p a litre, I quite happily pay a premium to be able to get fuel and drive off quickly rather than take 20-30 minutes to fuel up. 

[aerojon]

we really need the the code/s,a throttle code on the b207 engine means more than just the tb,it could be the pedal or a problem with one of the connectors located in the engine bay,the code itself will pin point this..As owners who repair/work on their vehicles,we know more about these cars and their systems than most garages..

[davidguthrie]

Thanks for that, aerojon, I'll have that in a few days and will share here. It's good to know there are people in here who know what they're about! It's unlikely I'd be able to do any meaningful work myself.
I guess it is just possible it's muck in the throttle body, eh?
Best wishes

[Max Headroom]

Maybe putting the 'super-fuel' in was a placebo effect, but I'm sure it wasn't! It definitely seemed to like it more (I'm talking about diesel here, not petrol).
I did however notice that the car went a hell of a lot better after I had spent an entire weekend snow-foaming, washing, polishing, waxing and vacuuming it 
Oddly my neighbour says the same of her car  - no doubt it was slipperier through the air, and lighter from less dust in the carpet 

The gunk in the fuel tank I think you might be referring to David, is possibly cladosporium resinae - otherwise known as 'Gladys' to those of us that were techies in the RAF.
I think its a fungus that grows either between the fuel and the air interface, or between fuel and any water ingress (I forget), and in an aircraft could potentially clog filters or even fuel lines with disastrous results.
I've not really heard of it in the motoring world but it stands to reason that it could just as easily appear. Certainly in the aviation industry it was associated with low-quality fuels, and was always referred to as microbial corrosion.
I would think however that diesel is nearer to Jet A aviation fuel (Kerosene) than petrol (in fact those with diesel engined cars used to use the drained-off aircraft fuel in their cars from doing the water/sediment checks to supplement their mileage), and I did hear a story of one guy that worked in an engine bay exclusively ran his car on aircraft jet fuel for years on end!
I would just like to add that I only ever did this very occasionally on a very old Peugeot 306 that I owned before the SAAB; I used about 25% aircraft fuel to a tank and only every two full tanks diesel; there was no way any aircraft fuel was going in my SAAB although it probably wouldn't have done that much damage, but I wasn't going to chance it.

With this knowledge, whenever I laid up a car for a long period of time while working overseas or in the case of my Midget, over winter months, I always filled the fuel tank to maximum rather than leave it empty. The theory being that a smaller volume of air might reduce the opportunity for condensation to form inside the tank leading to accumulative moisture ingress; its a practice that we always did with aircraft for the same reason.

Having got my Midget back last April, I had to change the fuel tank due to corrosion in the top of it that looked as though it had started from the inside. Who knows - maybe because when it was out of my tenure the tank was left empty for nearly 20 years 

[davidguthrie]

Hey, Max! The diesel problem first became known to me when I foolishly had a boat with a diesel engine (foolish to have the boat, not necessarily the engine!) where tanks might stand for months undrained by engine use, this would give microscopic lifeforms a stable and fertile breeding ground. Now, I guess, if you also slip in lots of bio-diesel, that could only exacerbate the problem.
Me? I know from nothing about these things!
In a separate thread, I've raised some points about the possibility of an ill-fitting filler cap causing or contributing to the warning light thing, advice on spark plugs and cancelling the warning light without a gizmo. On which subject, YouTube has raised some interesting possibilities such as simply removing the negative terminal for a couple of minutes. Whaddaya know?
Obiter dictum My travels through YT also turned up some tricks on cleaning fuzzed-up headlights; with toothpaste, yet. Looked good!
Best
David

[sgould]

Headlights are quicker with some wet & dry emery, followed by paint rubbing compound, followed by paint restorer, followed by a final coat of UV resistant lacquer.

Toothpaste will take forever!!

[Max Headroom]

Toothpaste? 
Headlights and other transparencies.... In the past I used to liberate the odd bottle or two of Greygate's Plastic polish from Her Majesty's Royal Air Force - this was used on aircraft canopies for removing scratches out of plexi-glass etc. I used it on the hood transparencies on the 1979 Midget (vinyl hood) and that car still has the original hood on it (circa 40 years old now!See attached photo) the transparencies remain as clear and non-yellowed as they were when it was new!

A colleague of mine used a kit from Halfrauds made by Autoglym for the very purpose of renovating the headlamp lenses, he said it was quite expensive. His Renault Clio lenses were dreadfully eroded and yellowed. I have to say the results were very impressive He said it was hard work, but it will be, whatever you use.

To make it a bit easier, in conjunction with the Greygates Polish (Or even T-Cut) I would choose a Micromesh kit; it comes with a series of abrasive cloths that are washable and reusable. Micromesh kits are usually pricey as they seem to have come from the aviation industry but I find them in various forms on Amazon and eBay cheaply enough.
When you first start using the coarser cloths you think you are totally wrecking the plastic surface, but you gradually move on to the finer ones and the plastic comes out like new. Obviously dont use the really coarse grit ones - they're for getting deep scratches out.
You have to asses the surface your'e polishing, and use an abrasive cloth that feels moderately rougher than the roughest part of the plastic you need to polish up.

VARIOUS Micromesh KITS here - though the Amazon 9 sheet kit seemed expensive compared to eBay but that might be the sheet sizes; I suggest using 6x4" . The Nine sheet kit would give you the different grades you need - the finest sheets dont even feel abrasive!
As you near the end of the polishing you would start using the finer sheets 'lubricated' with the Greygates and finish with just Greygates and a microfibre cloth

I dont recommend using any of these products on your teeth. 

[davidguthrie]

I am guided by the Masters of Zen and the Art of Saab Maintenance! Humbled, I am! And beg forgiveness for eliding this thread into a cleaning and detailing mode.
I mentioned the toothpaste matter for amusement. How was I to know I'd be met by a veritable storm of expertise!
Howsoe'er that may be, I have read, marked, learned and inwardly digested the wisdom and made notes {yes!} to be stored in my Saab folder.
Thanks to Will and Markmax.