Author Topic: Noisy tappets - how bad can it be ?  (Read 35467 times)

carrera

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Re: Noisy tappets - how bad can it be ?
« Reply #45 on: 06 December 2019, 09:29:16 PM »
I'm back on this one again.

This evening I whipped the inlet camshaft off again - getting quite quick at this now. I then used some new tools I have:

1. A bore gauge to measure the tappet bores. They are a nominal 33.000mm with a wear limit of 33.016mm. Six were in spec, two measured up at 33.020mm

2. The valve installed depth gauge that I made above. Wow, this is really easy to use. I was somewhat surprised to find that all 8 valves were in the correct range.

While the micrometer was set at 33mm I also measured the tappets. They all seem to be on or just beyond the wear limit. Four from another engine that wasn't rattly measured the same.

I think I'm better informed but confused at a higher level. I may have another head coming to me tomorrow, so I'll measure up and compare against that one.

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carrera

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Re: Noisy tappets - how bad can it be ?
« Reply #46 on: 07 December 2019, 10:50:09 PM »
A long update:

Some more work today. I took the exhaust cam off and measured the tappet / bore dimensions and in the process started to come to the conclusion that my measuring gear is not quite up to the job of measuring accurately enough.

JTC turned up with another head and we measured that as well. The tappets were coming up as the same diameter with the micrometer, bores similar and this engine had not been knocking from the tappets,  so I decided on a different approach.

The buckets and the bores each have a specification, and therefore an acceptable range. When worn, then I suppose it is possible for the bucket to rock slightly, but more importantly the pressure of the oil coming up the gallery and into the tappets will be reduced because of leakage up the wall with the greater clearance.

Specs are as follows:

Bores: 33.000 to 33.016
Tappets 32.959 to 32.975

The minimum clearance is thus 0.025mm and the max 0.057mm

Having calibrated the bore gauge against the micrometer again I then took measurements and compared the clearance.

On the inlet the range for the 8 valves was 0.035mm to 0.055mm so all within spec
On the exhaust the range was 0.020mm to 0.060mm, so just one tappet was out of spec by 0.003mm when my gauge is only accurate to 0.01mm

This left me with the prospect of reassembly, but with no component change the noise would still be there The oil galleries were inspected and they appear to be clear, indeed my head was quite a bit cleaner that the comparative Aero head.

Now, I had heard comments that sometimes a broken stud can sound like a tappet, and as this engine has two broken on number 4 I was encouraged to fix those. Along the way I discovered that the exhaust manifold cannot be removed without the turbo being free to move, so the turbo was fully removed allowing inspection.  The gasket was very oily on number 4

The conclusion was it needs a rebuild. While the radial play seemed reasonable, there was a lot of axial play and having heard metal to metal contact when spinning the exhaust side a closer inspection showed a small groove present on the compression side where the blades have been touching. So, it needs attention.

I am being encouraged to do this myself....... having seen seal kits on ebay for Chinese manufactured components is there an alternate supply for higher quality materials as I understand it is possible to DIY provided you are meticulous about ensuring the turbine wheel and nut are put back in the same place, thus preserving the balance

The two studs that need replacement were on number 4 and I had pre-ordered studs from Saabits. I have drilled the old studs out and re-tapped threads for replacements. I am yet to discover if they are correctly aligned, or some tweaking is required  ::)

I will have to return to the question of the noisy tappets again.......... they all seemed to be pumped up and hard, yet we had heard the tapping using a stethoscope previously. Where's the confused smiley .... ah that'll do  ???

Words of wisdom and advice appreciated


 
« Last Edit: 07 December 2019, 10:54:27 PM by carrera »
9-5 Aero Estates, 2002 Cosmic Blue, 2003 Steel Grey, 2003 Graphite Green, 2004 9-5 Glacier Blue 2.0 saloon, 2004 Nocturne Blue 2.2 diesel estate, 2006 & 2008 Black Aero saloons, 1998 9000 CSE with Aero engine, 9-5 NG Aero XWD Turbo4, 9-5 NG Aero XWD TTiD

carrera

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Re: Noisy tappets - how bad can it be ?
« Reply #47 on: 08 December 2019, 05:00:09 PM »
I had as few minutes to get the camera and dial gauge out this afternoon.

There's 1mm of axial play......... can you see the groove  :o

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carrera

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Re: Noisy tappets - how bad can it be ?
« Reply #48 on: 09 December 2019, 01:18:59 PM »

Tbo is essentially the same as earlier models but has a 'short nose' compressor housing. Mitsubishi part number 49189-01850
And the larger cobra is a proper monkey puzzle, I've managed to get it in and out, after many swears, by slackening off the actuator bolts..

Are you sure on the part number ?

Now the turbo is out, not only can I see the difference between short nose and long nose (easy when you have two side by side), but the one of the DE is a 49189-01810
9-5 Aero Estates, 2002 Cosmic Blue, 2003 Steel Grey, 2003 Graphite Green, 2004 9-5 Glacier Blue 2.0 saloon, 2004 Nocturne Blue 2.2 diesel estate, 2006 & 2008 Black Aero saloons, 1998 9000 CSE with Aero engine, 9-5 NG Aero XWD Turbo4, 9-5 NG Aero XWD TTiD

fka

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Re: Noisy tappets - how bad can it be ?
« Reply #49 on: 10 December 2019, 01:45:12 PM »
I am fairly sure. Mitsubishi list it as fitted to the B235R as of MY07. I think it supersedes 49189-01810/20/30 although they're all listed for the B235R from MY06 to MY07
http://www.mitsubishi-turbo.com/product/49189-01850-turbocharger/
Ignore the pictures on the website, they're just for show..

If it's warn a groove then it will have removed material from the compressor blades and need balancing or the compressor replaced/rebalanced. But what i can see in you pic looks like its machined rather than worn. Im fairly sure mine has that 'step'?? in the housing. Let me try and find a pic..

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Re: Noisy tappets - how bad can it be ?
« Reply #50 on: 10 December 2019, 03:34:56 PM »
I think you are right.  My damaged one has the same lip.

The other damage was caused by the nut on the end "Unspinning" itself under the influence of inertia when the exhaust end went bang and the impeller stopped very suddenly! :o
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sgould

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Re: Noisy tappets - how bad can it be ?
« Reply #51 on: 10 December 2019, 03:40:10 PM »
The other end came apart and the impeller was like this!  :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :(
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carrera

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Re: Noisy tappets - how bad can it be ?
« Reply #52 on: 10 December 2019, 04:27:51 PM »
Thanks for the photos and the links. I don't know why I didn't find the Mitsubishi website on my searches, too much Alibaba coming up :(

It appears that the 1810 is the MY06 turbo and the 1850 the MY07 onwards. There's a difference but who knows what ???

I haven't seen a turbo with that type of groove in it before so I suspect it is damage. I need a big set of circlip pliers to get the core out. I have found a place that sells the replacement seal kits https://www.turborebuild.co.uk/webshop/prod_3444881-Turbo-Repair-Rebuild-Service-Repair-Kit-fits-TD04-Mitsubishi-Turbocharger-Super-Back.html, UK based and the kits are not made in China.

I'm in a bit of a quandry now. I really should put another turbo on, but don't want to spend the money on one if the tappets are still noisy. I can't check if the tappets are still noisy without putting a turbo back on, so maybe the route to go is to get the rebuild kit and fit the existing turbo, which may be out of balance. I have another turbo from my blue car, which was smoky and replaced because the seals were gone. Nothing like 1mm of endfloat on that.

First thing is to get some circlip pliers strong enough to get the core out for inspection, and then go back to the tappets and see if I can find the technique to get them open to inspect the internals, as at this point I have found nothing physically wrong with the valve gear to cause the noise.

The is proving to be much more difficult than I thought  :(

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fka

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Re: Noisy tappets - how bad can it be ?
« Reply #53 on: 10 December 2019, 04:43:42 PM »
That's one sick looking turbo Will  ;D

I'm sure the hosing is machined that way - take a look at this pic of a new one

https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.neobrothers.co.uk%2Fekmps%2Fshops%2F958aa3%2Fimages%2Fturbo-charger-saab-9-5-06-09-2.3-aero-td04hl-15t-3148-p.jpg&imgrefurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.neobrothers.co.uk%2Fturbo-charger-saab-9-5-06-09-23-aero-td04hl-15t-3148-p.asp&docid=CvXnjTJLAhXcJM&tbnid=jIXMsudGLNCKoM%3A&vet=10ahUKEwiix-P3wKvmAhXSy6QKHcxbBQAQMwipAihBMEE..i&w=750&h=501&client=firefox-b-d&bih=803&biw=1440&q=td04-15t&ved=0ahUKEwiix-P3wKvmAhXSy6QKHcxbBQAQMwipAihBMEE&iact=mrc&uact=8

Have a look at Kinugawa's stuff. It's Chinese but good quality. Their UK shop is actually on eBay but you can browse their catalogue better on this site http://shopping.kinugawaturbo.com/
UK shop https://www.ebay.co.uk/str/kinugawaturbouk

You could buy a complete and balanced CHRA from them if needs be, although it's not a cheap option. However if there's no obvious signs of wear on yours and it's not peeing oil, it should be good to go back in, at least for the sake of testing on your tappet issue.

carrera

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Re: Noisy tappets - how bad can it be ?
« Reply #54 on: 10 December 2019, 04:57:37 PM »
Well, isn't that strange.  My longnose turbo also has a groove, just not at the tip of the turbine blades but about 8mm away

Those Taiwanese turbos seem to be more expensive that genuine. I remember buying a brand new GT30 for about £700 somethink like 12 years ago, when they were the latest thing (not for a Saab)

The one off the DE is pretty bad - 1 whole millimetre of axial play / endfloat and the exhaust is very smoky, continuous too, so yes, I would say it is peeing oil
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fka

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Re: Noisy tappets - how bad can it be ?
« Reply #55 on: 10 December 2019, 05:03:43 PM »
I would say it is peeing oil

Fair play  ;D

carrera

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Re: Noisy tappets - how bad can it be ?
« Reply #56 on: 10 December 2019, 05:20:20 PM »
Fair play  ;D

Not really, way too much play ;D
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fka

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Re: Noisy tappets - how bad can it be ?
« Reply #57 on: 10 December 2019, 07:22:57 PM »
arf!  ;D

carrera

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Re: Noisy tappets - how bad can it be ?
« Reply #58 on: 12 December 2019, 05:25:52 PM »
Nah, I tell you it's a whole millimetre not arf a millimetre  ;D

I am waiting for some man sized pliers to arrive to continue with the turbo, and in the meantime decided to have another go with the tappets.

Using the "hit it hard against a piece of wood" method as advised elsewhere on the internet, I finally managed to get one apart. In the end I started with the tappet above my head and brought it down onto the piece of wood on the workbench directly above the leg. Now I have done one I suppose the technique should work on the other 15.

I have some more reading to do, but I think this is only partially dismantled. These bits are soaking in ATF overnight

May as well add this useful link as well https://www.uksaabs.co.uk/UKS/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=185194 and with excellent pics and description of operation https://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=913207

« Last Edit: 12 December 2019, 07:18:03 PM by carrera »
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carrera

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Re: Noisy tappets - how bad can it be ?
« Reply #59 on: 12 December 2019, 10:12:26 PM »
..... and for everyone's benefit an explanation of how these work from the manufacturer, INA

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