"Valid" insurance?

[CitTone]

Knowing how often the subject of insurance for (even moderately) modified cars arises here, it occurred to me while watching yet another "cops on TV" documentary that they seem to be quite hot on pulling cars that ANPR flags as uninsured, but what about all those scallys that are running around with undeclared mods like chopped springs, aftermarket alloys, sewer-pipe exhausts and remaps, that ANPR would let through, but are actually, in the event of a crunch, enough to nullify cover?

Do the Feds regularly check up on the policies of such vehicles? I would be highly surprised if the majority were legitimately covered.

Anyone any experience/opinions?

[Norfolk Jim]

Last year my son got stopped by 2 traffic cops in the city and with them 2 rookie cops. I just happened to be his passenger as he'd fetched me from station - good lad - and a mate was in the back. Good job I was with him though.

They pulled him over saying he'd got a lamp out - he got out and looked and couldn't find anything wrong. Went to get back in and they asked for his insurance details and proceeded to have a good look round the car (it was a rare Honda Civic VTiS Jap Import (only 300 made) which has unusual looking spoilers front and back). His insurance cert was at home and they asked him to produce it at local station with details of the car modifications as they wouldn't believe it was all standard.

I got out and asked them why they'd stopped him - they explained lamp was out and this was an offence. I checked lamp was OK. I knocked the car and tapped around and lamp was still OK. I asked if they had camera evidence showing it was out. No they hadn't; one of the rookies had the side wrong as well. I politely suggested they contact the MID there and then to prove car was insured,  which they did and found it was. I then asked what their real reason was and they then came clean and said they were trying to crack down on hotted up cars. I explained car was completely standard and they actually had no right to stop him with no evidence he was or had committed an offence. They stepped back and tried backing down when I asked for their number and which station they were based and that we would be reporting them for hassle which I did!

We got a nice letter back from Norfolk Constabulary apologizing about the incident but they mentioned in the letter that they were trying to crack down on boy racers and modified cars.

Sorry long story but hope it makes sense - in essence CitTone they were trying to do what you say but failed badly as his car was actually standard - but incredibly quick.

Unfortunately 4 weeks later some woman pulled out into side of him and wrote it off. She said it was his fault but he had 3 independent witnesses and won the case but his car was checked over by their engineer and confirmed standard for that model.

Moral is that always we declare any modifications no matter how small they may be - just in case!

Sad story in end.....................

[Petemate]

Well done Jim. I regularly watch those cop programmes, and while I seethe at some stroppy miscreants' reactions when they are stopped, your particular situation shows just how plod can get it wrong. The old chestnut of "you had a lamp out" will, some years hence, not work as more cars get fitted with bulb failure warnings Hats off to Volvo who, and I stand to be corrected here, introduced this feature first in mass-produced cars; so sensitive are most of these systems that bulbs frequently need to be replaced in pairs. Many years ago when I was in the trade we often had extremely angry customers who objected to us having to fit another bulb to match the maker's quality of the one the other side after they had gone to Halfrauds, popped a new one from there in, only to find the warning was still there....lol.....)
Sorry, went O/T. It is tricky to challenge plod when they are 'only doing their job' but while I have full respect for them I cannot justify them stopping a car when there is nothing flagging up on ANPR. Surely they would have been better just explaining at the start that they were cracking down on 'hot' cars being nicked or whatever, and maybe on a PR basis have a friendly chat with the driver asking what he thought of the car, blah blah? A lot of cops are genuine petrol-heads. Shame that this occasion left a poor impression. Hats off to you for keeping your cool!

Pete

[Max Headroom]

Surely they would have been better just explaining at the start that they were cracking down on 'hot' cars being nicked or whatever, and maybe on a PR basis have a friendly chat with the driver asking what he thought of the car, blah blah? A lot of cops are genuine petrol-heads. Shame that this occasion left a poor impression. Hats off to you for keeping your cool!

Absolutely bang on!

DITTO from me

[Audax]

but what about all those scallys that are running around with undeclared mods like chopped springs, aftermarket alloys, sewer-pipe exhausts and remaps, that ANPR would let through, but are actually, in the event of a crunch, enough to nullify cover?

I believe that It doesn't nullify their cover towards the 3rd party, their insurance company will still pay out just they won't cover the scallys loss (same thing exists for drink/drug driving). However as the insurance is invalid if it means their insurance will be cancelled and their premiums would go sky high as they lied etc. etc.

[Audax]

Last year my son got stopped by 2 traffic cops in the city and with them 2 rookie cops. I just happened to be his passenger as he'd fetched me from station - good lad - and a mate was in the back. Good job I was with him though.

Norfolk plod (well, I guess all plod) have been doing that for years, I was once pulled at about 3am about 1/4 of a mile from a very rural pub car park. A friend of mine worked in the pub and we had stayed late as we knew the landlord and were chatting with him after closing time.

I was pulled as soon as I drove around the corner and as I got out of the car the copper said "Evening" and then my first name. I immediately asked how he knew my name. He said he'd just used his radio to get my car details. This was long before ANPR and unfortunately for him I knew exactly how long it took them to get the driver details and so I asked if the control room log would back him up. This rather put him on the back foot and I then challenged him as to why he had pulled me over, he said I had a light out. I asked which one and he said it had magically come back on but he was going to breathalyse me and check the car over.

At this point I asked if he knew my name as he'd gone around earlier in the evening collecting number plates and then getting drivers details early because my car was parked in the pub car park. He denied this and started getting shirty, I passed the breath test and he was now in a bit of a mood as I told him he'd had no reason to pull me over and that if he had gone around the car park to get these details he was acting unlawfully as he had no reason to pull me over without suspicion that I was up to no good. He then checked the tax disc, unfortunately it was new that day. He then also checked all the tyres which were brand new that day and was desperately trying to find something wrong with my car, he even got right into the car to nose around I'm guessing to see if we had any cannabis or drugs then as he couldn't find anything wrong he said he'd being doing a presenter for MOT and Insurance. The poor guy was fuming when I told him there was no need, I'd got the MOT done that very day and got the tax disc that afternoon so had all my docs in the car, I then politely told him that I'd be forwarding a complaint to his sergeant and he nearly lost it and started yelling at me. I didn't pursue it in the end as it wasn't worth it but he could have actually admitted he was trying to get me for drink driving.

I also had great fun a few months later when I was with a friend was pulled for "a light out" (favourite excuse of Norfolk plod it seems) which again was an excuse to have a nosey around a car as i guess a group of late teens/early 20's in the car might be up to no good. The cop was rather upset when I noticed his car had a light out, I made a very snide remark of why he ought to get that seen to, he didn't see the funny side of that either 

[Max Headroom]

Heheh - thats outrageous. I imagine that guy is in his grave from blood-pressure problems by now!

So far I have never been pulled as such, other than a couple of cops flagging cars down as they left Thame town centre one evening at pub kicking-out time.
It was a completely random breath test (which I passed) The cops were very business like but chatty and polite - almost apologetic - and bid me a big 'thank you' for co-operating, sending me on my way. I wasn't bothered in the least - there was nothing untoward like the "you have a light out" wheeze. After all, the scuffers were just doing their job and obviously the local kids were tending to go out drinking and driving at that time and the scuffers were keeping them in check, and thus helping to keep joe public safe.

[phoenix]

but what about all those scallys that are running around with undeclared mods like chopped springs, aftermarket alloys, sewer-pipe exhausts and remaps, that ANPR would let through, but are actually, in the event of a crunch, enough to nullify cover?

I believe that It doesn't nullify their cover towards the 3rd party, their insurance company will still pay out just they won't cover the scallys loss (same thing exists for drink/drug driving). However as the insurance is invalid if it means their insurance will be cancelled and their premiums would go sky high as they lied etc. etc.

Yup, that's about the size of it. Ergo I can't see the justification from a crime point of view on cracking down on modded cars, unless it's an insurance company sponsored initiative

[Audax]

Yup, that's about the size of it. Ergo I can't see the justification from a crime point of view on cracking down on modded cars, unless it's an insurance company sponsored initiative

I *think* that technically as they have invalidated their own insurance from the undeclared mods then their insurance is not valid so it's the same as no insurance, that the insurance company still has to provide the third party cover even while the insurance isn't valid is beside the point. If the police stop you and call the insurance company to clarify some details and it turns out you're cover is not right then the insurance company can stop covering your car immediately which means you're then committing an offence.

I've now read up on it some more and the Police have the right to stop any vehicle at any time and do not have to give a reason, it seems that they're not allowed to search the vehicle unless they suspect that it is carrying people who have committed a crime or may be about to commit a crime. Once the vehicle is stopped they can ask for registration cert, insurance cert and driving license and of course by this point they will be looking for evidence of drink driving or any other crime.

I'm guessing that if they resort to the "you had a light out" if they subsequently find out you've committed an offence that they would have not been allowed to stop you for without reasonable suspicion then they could explain away why they had stopped you to a court more easily? That the light wasn't out would probably be of no relevance as you'd have to prove that the light was working and you'd have to prove that the officer knew this, he could easily just say "I didn't see it, I must have been mistaken but while speaking with the occupants I noticed the machete/handgun/drugs/alcohol/no insurance/stolen goods"

Anyhow, I'm not a lawyer, don't rely on what I've written there in court or when dealing with the Police 

[CitTone]

I *think* that technically as they have invalidated their own insurance from the undeclared mods then their insurance is not valid so it's the same as no insurance, that the insurance company still has to provide the third party cover even while the insurance isn't valid is beside the point.

Qhuite so, but the difference is important to the victim 3rd party though!

[Audax]

Qhuite so, but the difference is important to the victim 3rd party though!

Not sure I follow what you mean? If the scally has an accident and his insurance co. find out his car was modded they still have to cover your loss (assuming he was at fault and hit you) so there's no difference to you if you're the "victim"?

[CitTone]

I meant the difference between "not having insurance" and "not having VALID insurance" is important to the 3rd party.

Sorry, the old sentences were starting to get a little mangled there!

[john]

I got followed for ten miles by a Thames Valley dog handler.  As soon as he joined me on the roundabout I knew that he was following me.  I drove like the a saint. 

When I reached my destination he pulled up next to me and told me I had a light out.  Or, more precisely, both brakelights were out.  I apologised, got out and checked whilst my friend pressed the brake pedal.  Yes.  Both out.

I explained to the copper I'd just collected the car from the mechanics.  I had - it had been in that day for work.  Copper asked me to fix brakelights before I drove again.  So, that evening we fixed my brakelights.

Copper was friendly and understood situation.  I thought he treated me well, especially as I was only 25 and driving around in a hot hatch at the time.

[Norfolk Jim]

That's good John - It's really how it should be.

It also pays to keep your cool and be polite even if they seem rude. Just some manners goes a long way to make the difference between getting a ticket and not.

About 8 years ago I was travelling up M1 very late at night/morning and was doing around 90. Nothing at all about. I was aware of car following me and then pulling up beside me - nearly 5hat myself it was an unmarked car. We both slowed down to around 30 and wound windows down & spoke/shouted to each other - I apologized and said didn't realize speed as nothing about. They said they realized this as they'd followed me for around last 5 miles and I wasn't being stupid but to be careful of other drivers not driving as safe and then drove off!! Common sense for a change

[john]

It also pays to keep your cool and be polite even if they seem rude.

Agree with that, Jim.  To be fair to the Thames Valley policeman, he was polite and I was happy to take his advice / instruction to fix it immediately.