Saab Tech Talk (STT)

Workshop for classic Saab models => Classic Saab 9-5 (MY 1998-2010) => Topic started by: carrera on 31 October 2018, 05:20:10 PM

Title: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: carrera on 31 October 2018, 05:20:10 PM
I have just bought a 2003 9-5 Aero estate in Graphite Green, with light accident damage.

My intention is to put it back on the road, rather than break it, subject to any advice given on here, and to do a little re-build thread.

It's a high spec car, sunroof, ventilated seats, sat nav and I believe the Harmon Kardon Prestige audio system as there is a speaker on the right hand side of the boot, 128,000 miles with mainly main dealer history.

This is as I picked it up

(http://937carrera.co.uk/IMAG1191.jpg)

Today I have removed the damaged wing and front bumper. The bumper will repair, but it needs a splitter. The plastic part of the headlamp is damaged so it needs one of those, but the rest of the metalwork is fine, and though dry the washer bottle too..

The tailgate wasn't shutting / opening correctly, neither did the warning lights work. The problem there was the plastic covering over the latch in the tailgate was damaged, stopping the latch from retracting easily. The microswitch is also u/s, the giveaway being the connector was hanging loose. When I reconnected it the lights stayed on when the tailgate was shut. So probably a mechanism needed.

I was a bit surprised to see corrosion on the panel behind the bumper, is that normal ?

(http://937carrera.co.uk/IMAG1197.jpg)

SID is telling me "Service Theft Alarm".  The remote control isn't opening / closing the locks either.

Might this be the issue, many pieces of broken plastic deposited themselved when I removed the arch liner  :)

(http://937carrera.co.uk/IMAG1198.jpg)
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: sgould on 31 October 2018, 05:44:52 PM
Looks to be fairly straightforward to fix.

The bumper bar can get a bit rusty.  The plastic padding fits in tight and traps the water. 

The other areas that you need to investigate for rust is the rear wheel arches.  My 2007 ones were vey rusty behind the plastic liners.  I was advised to clean off the loose rust and use some rust treatment, followed by hammerite and underseal.  i used some rust convertor called Hydrate 80 from Bilt Hamber,  It seems to be very good, and it doesn't need washing off before you paint it.  It was recommended to me by Martin at Jamsaab in Bristol.  He does a lot of work on older cars.   As a recommendation, I used some nearly two years ago and the work is OK, but I cleaned the brush out by painting it on the rusty retaining chain on my trailer.  That chain is still not rusty and there was no paint over it.  And it's hung in the open air all the time.

The alarm siren that you have removed will not affect the remote key entry.  If neither key works, and the batteries are OK, you may need to look at the box that receives the signal.  It's situated at the back of the centre console.
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: sgould on 31 October 2018, 05:50:35 PM
Here's the state of my rear wheel arches.  2007 estate at 160,000 miles
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: sgould on 31 October 2018, 05:56:03 PM
My bumper isn't too bad.  Its lost paint where the padding rests.
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: carrera on 31 October 2018, 06:06:40 PM
Thanks for the quick replies - though I didn't get notified of them, so here's another test.

You're right on the rear arches. My blue one was left too long and has spread quite badly. I don't like the cost of new panels from Saab either. This one has the classic first signs, about 10-15mm of rust showing at the front edges. That can get treated when the other bits are being painted. I've heard good stuff about Bilt Hamber too, thanks for the tip. You've shocked me a bit with the picture of the rust on the inside of your arch though, I wasn't expecting to see that.

The other accident damage is to the rear right hand door. Like the front wing, that'll be a second hand replacement as I suspect it'll be cheaper / a better fix  than repairing the one on the car.

It was only when I went to lock the car tonight I found out the remote wasn't working. I should have known, the plastic lock cover was missing. Key fob batteries are the next item to check, though I suppose I should dig the other key out first  :)

(http://937carrera.co.uk/IMAG1199.jpg)

Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: sgould on 31 October 2018, 06:55:00 PM
I still can't get the notifications to work. :( 

Maybe we need an upgrade.  The software is a couple of versions behind, but I need to get very brave to do anything that fundamental.

When you replace the rear door, don't forget that the estate and saloon doors are different.  There's a very small extra bit at the top rear corner.  Front doors are the same.
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: sgould on 31 October 2018, 08:06:05 PM
A quick post to see if you get a notification now.
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: sgould on 31 October 2018, 08:17:21 PM
Changed the email to SMTP.  Any change?
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: carrera on 31 October 2018, 08:53:03 PM
Not on my side, how about yours ?
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: sgould on 31 October 2018, 10:03:32 PM
No nothing.

I'll look into a software upgrade of the board.  But it won't be for a while.  We have a loft conversion starting in 2 weeks, and I have a house to clear.  I need to be able to use the computer without the risk of power cuts and other things. 
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: carrera on 01 November 2018, 12:12:16 PM
The other key fob doesn't open the doors either, so two flat batteries or something else is wrong.

It's annoying having to use the key to open the boot - the boot release and the petrol flap don't work, there's the sound of something catching when the window goes down, so someone's been messing.

Whipped the door card off and saw the loom was not tied down, nor were the connections onto the back of the buttons. Nice simple job, put the connectors on and test. The petrol flap now works, the boot release still didn't.

Time to test the switch. It didn't seem to be working correctly so I dismantled, cleaned the internals and re-tested. Having looked at the wiring diagram I then spotted that the connector only had two wires, not the three that the switch has.

Time for a spot of loom repair I think. :(

(http://937carrera.co.uk/IMAG1200.jpg)

Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: carrera on 01 November 2018, 02:42:47 PM
Loom fixed, fuel flap release, tailgate release and door underlighting all working correctly. :)

I found a large rubber strip in the bottom of the door, and couldn;t see where it fitted, couldn't see it on the EPC parts diagrams either.

I did find a number printed on the back so with a quick google for FC1939 I came across this thread, with a picture. http://forum.saabturboclub.com/showthread.php/121849-Var-i-d%C3%B6rren-ska-denna-list-sitta (http://forum.saabturboclub.com/showthread.php/121849-Var-i-d%C3%B6rren-ska-denna-list-sitta)

My Swedish is a bit rusty, so I had to resort to Google translate - that didn't help much either, but I after pulling almost the entire waterproof seal off I spotted that the outer window runner did not have a rubber guide strip fitted. bingo.

I fitted it but have hd to remove it again because one of the green runners / retainers is missing so the window just pivots.

Here's a photo with the strip pointing at the missing runner. Some more minor parts to add to the list, and an explanation for the rattly window when lowering.

Someone's definitely been messing. I suspect a window problem, leading to the loom being moved, not put back correctly and then teh window going up and down eventually chops the loom to the door switches.  :(

(http://937carrera.co.uk/IMAG1201.jpg)


Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: sgould on 01 November 2018, 03:36:52 PM
The green rollers are quite cheap.  Try to get "genuine", they are better, or used to be.  Some of the eBay specials have a very short life.  I use www.saabits.com for my genuine parts,  run by Bill Jones who used to live locally but is now in the south-west.

One tip on fitting the green clips.  Put the wire clip on first and press the roller onto the spindle - I used a small G-clamp.  trying to get the clip on afterwards is very hard. Grease it all up.
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: carrera on 01 November 2018, 03:52:52 PM
Cheers  :)

I try to use Saabits whenever I can - I'm a "pre VerticalScope" Saabscene member, so remember him and others from those days.  No need to share my details with 201 advertising partners on here  :) :) :)

In fact, I'm just in the process of fitting some handbrake return springs I bought from him for my grey car
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: phoenix on 02 November 2018, 08:23:08 AM
The rubber in the bottom of the door is common. It's come out of the rear internal window channel.

I have a shark tooth bumper (need finishing rubbing down and painting) and headlight if you're interested :)
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: carrera on 02 November 2018, 09:25:21 AM
Thanks for confirming where the rubber goes, I'll need to get the roller and then can see if it will slip in nicely. Is the symptom that the rubber has come out a bit of a rattle when you close the door, if sop then the other side probably needs doing.

Mines an '03 model so pre shark tooth front bumper, thanks for the offer anyway, but the headlight could come in useful  :). I'm getting my parts list together, I might get underneath later today and see what's necessary from that perspective. I know it needs a tie rod, and probably an engine mount as I can feel movement / a clunk when the engine starts. Nothing more when driving around though.

A couple of quick successes this morning. Remote entry is not working again. Key fob battery. One was 0v, it took about 3 presses before the code was recognised, and then the other one started working too after a couple of presses. I suppose the rolling codes got out of sequence ?

Next was the electric seats / mirrors. Seats were working, but a couple of the memory buttons were sticky. A few squirts of electrical contact spray and a bit of wiggling with a jewellers screwdriver and they are all fine now. The Vauxhall Cavalier mirror adjuster seems a bit sluggish to respond to presses, contact cleaner needed there no doubt.

I have a question on the mirrors though. I thought they were all supposed to be body colour. I seem to have black mirrors, is that normal for a graphite green car or have they both been swapped. As I like my cars original I'm happy to get them repainted if they should be.

There's a button on the dash for retractable mirrors, but neither of them are moving. Given this car seems to have a healthy dose of electrical gremlins, maybe it's another bunch of them, or maybe both mirror heads have been swapped over for non retractable. Only way to tell will be to whip them off I suppose.

Thanks for the interest Phoenix - quite an apt name for my project

(http://937carrera.co.uk/IMAG1202.jpg)
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: phoenix on 02 November 2018, 10:06:22 AM
The shark tooth I have is complete with all grilles, fogs etc except the chrome inserts which are the same so it is a direct bolt on replacement :) I'd bought it to fit to my old MY03 but then got an Edna.

I put the rubber back in mine... but after a little while it snagged and fell out whilst at the same time popping the rollers off. I think once it's damaged it's no good. I ran it without for around 8 years. The only issue was that if you shut the door with the window down it rattled.

The mirrors should be colour coded. The folding mechanism normally fails because of a thermal fuse in the mirror. You can dig it out and re-solder a newer higher rated one in its place. I've done this on mine.
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: sgould on 02 November 2018, 11:16:56 AM
This is the bit that fails and stops the motor.  The yellow and white wires are soldered to the folding motor, so it's not a replaceable part, or sold as such.  Either dig out the bits from the resin and fix it, or find one from a breaker and cut and crimp the wires.

But, it's unusual for both to fail.  You may find that there's switch or wiring problem.   On the other hand, two black mirror casings suggest that the mirrors have been hit and damaged.
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: phoenix on 02 November 2018, 02:53:51 PM
This is the bit you need to replace:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/0-4A-400mA-RXEF040-UF040-Resettable-Fuse-72V-PTC-Polyswitch-Polyfuse-48v-W13-/222970817582

It's quite fiddly to cut out but once you hack away enough of the potting compound (I used a plastic cutting disc on a dremmel) you can cut the top off leaving the legs to solder the new one on to.
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: carrera on 02 November 2018, 04:58:07 PM
Cheers for that.

I'm still looking at the silly/easy stuff before I go underneath.

Next on my list was the sunroof. It's completely dead, no clicking or anything. So after a quick read around I checked fuses 23 and 26. Both fine, both with 12V. Next in the current flow is the motor, but as that's up in the roof I thought I would go to the end and check the earth connection at G33, left hand A post, not expecting to find a problem.

I couldn't see any connection so ended up taking the glovebox out to get a better view. No sign of a connection or a loose wire.

Am I looking in the right place. Is it possibly on the other A post for RHD  ::)

This car definitely has electrical gremlins, glovebox light isn't working either and the holder doesn't want to come out.

(http://937carrera.co.uk/IMAG1203.jpg)
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: fka on 02 November 2018, 11:15:57 PM
I've just refit the rubber window guide for the 2nd time in a year, but I've nomorenailed the little bugger in this time so I'm hoping it's the last time..

Great thread BTW carrera, I love seeing these projects progressing! And I'm absolutely coveting your vented seats  ;D
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: carrera on 05 November 2018, 02:29:50 PM
You can have first bagsy on the vented seats if I break it  :)

Having given up on finding the earth I decided to venture up into the roof.

Instructions aren't that clear, remove the clear lens from the front, that exposes a screw that allows you to remove the outer cover. Then there's a couple of screws at the front AND a couple of middle screws, which are hidden by the headlining. My finger is showing where they are, you have to remove the sun visor screws.

Wish me luck, I'm about to go in armed with the meter

(http://937carrera.co.uk/IMAG1207.jpg)
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: carrera on 05 November 2018, 02:46:47 PM
Well that was easy, after a few hours work.

When I removed the overhead switch cluster there was a big loose connector

Checked earth, terminal 6 - good earth
Checked permanant live, terminal 5, 12v
Checked switched live, terminal 1, 12v

Might as well plug it in then.

Everything works, though it was a bit slow. The battery is probably low and a bit of the right lubrication (what ?) in the mechanism probably won't go amiss.

All a bit boring in the end, time to reassemble.

I can't help thinking that someone has removed the connector for a reason. There was a tell tale, one of the plastic clips on the light sensor cover was damaged.

Hmmm  :-\

ps - Took the opportunity to replace two out of the three bulbs for the seat belt sign
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: carrera on 08 November 2018, 06:28:18 PM
Not much of an update, but the grey Aero passed its MOT today, blue one is being prepped.

I went back to reasembling the left hand side of the dash and got distracted into trying to get the glovebox light working.

It was all melted and manky and not working. After numerous attempts at soldering I got it working, then found out it didn't switch off. Then I consulted the wiring diagram to find out how it worked and I finally realised the melted bits were the remains of the switching mechanism, which is made / broken by the operation of the glovebox damper.

Something else to add to the shopping list, but I suspect I need two as the light isn't working in the grey one either and the lens is deformed. ::)  Good as gold in the blue one though  :)

I bought another special tool today. Wiper arm remover, just could not get them off so I can lubricate the mechanism on the blue one which is squeeky
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: fka on 10 November 2018, 02:48:14 PM
The melted glovebox light seems quite a common issue. Had the same problem with my 9-5, it's quite a cheap and IIRC a common GM part.
Just make sure once you've replaced it the mechanism is actually being triggered when the glovebox is shut.

Just found my post here ... http://www.saabtechtalk.com/forum/index.php?topic=3696.0 (http://www.saabtechtalk.com/forum/index.php?topic=3696.0)

Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: carrera on 12 November 2018, 06:37:14 PM
I started looking under the car now.

As suspected, one of the tie rods looks bent, I will need to remove the boot at the steering rack and inspect more closely.

Somewhat disappointingly, it looks like the NSF strut is kinked. That'll also help explain the steering wheel being off centre.

Does anyone know the difference between the sport dampers. There seem to be four types according to the parts diagrams, grey and blue, 2002-2003 and post 2003.

While I am sure any will fit, there must be some differences between the four part numbers, though I note all 4 are supeceded by just one part number.

Mine's a blue colour code, 2002-2003 type.
 
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: sgould on 13 November 2018, 10:48:36 AM
Saab seemed to try a lot of suspension variations, then settle on a final one. 

If you are looking to change all the suspension, then you should look at the "B12" kit.  This is the Bilstein B8 dampers and struts along with the Eibach Pro-Kit springs.  I have it on my 2007 estate and it's very good.  My kit came with new front top mounts "for free".  These mounts were the most expensive free item I have had.  They lasted about 500 miles before falling apart...
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: carrera on 13 November 2018, 01:00:05 PM
Thanks for that.

I'm just wanting to get the car on the road rather than invest in upgrades - TBH I'm happy enough with the suspension on my blue Aero, the grey one is not as good, but that has inferior tyres on, at the moment.

I guess the dampers are one way only, so it's only the bump valveing which varies. If that is the difference then I need to find the same part number or a matched pair. It's getting more expensive.
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: carrera on 30 July 2019, 05:55:38 PM
Time for a little update on this as she's benefitted from some work over the past couple of days.

First thing I have done is remove the air filter box and drop the oil cooler pipe down. Why ?, Well you may have guessed by now that I decided while the front bumper was off it woul;d be a good time to clean up the various pipes at the front end for the coolers, derust them and then put some protection in place. After rubbing down I just put some hammerite smooth on. I think there are better direct to metal paints out there, but it's what I had on the shelf, and something is better than nothing.

I then looked at the front bumper crossmember and did a similar thing.  That didn't fare so well as the water accumulation behind the foam across the central upper part has allowed the rust to really take hold and in parts sections of the upper part had disappeared . Again, for the moment I prepared and painted it with hammerite. Definitely not bodyshop standard, but at least it will not get worse. This type of damage is not visible without removing the front bumper, I wonder how many have this sort of deterioration.

Next I noticed that one of the wires to the left indicator was hanging loose (I assume caused by the accident damage). After confirming that the bulbholder does only have two connections I concluded that the green wire must be for side markers in the US and not required in this country. I was therefore able to just tidy the cable up and make the loom good. The indicator works

Getting the siren from the breaker car I then straightend out the metal work for the alarm / siren, fitted it and made the electrical connections. Straigtforward job and good because there is no longer a theft alarm warning on SID  :Fawlty:

Washer bottle is now refitted and all the pipes / pumps are in place, so on that corner if needs the replacement wing painting and fitting

That was yesterdays work, today I have been tackling the brakes, which worked fine, but looked a bit grotty.... well a lot grotty. As there was nothing actually wrong with them, but I wanted a future disc replacement to be easy I have stripped all the brakes down, cleaned up the ridges on the disc and replaced everything. The 4th corner is in the middle of the rebuild now, so that will be finished tomorrow. Was there anything of note for a vanilla job ?

Just a couple of things

1. Front caliper carrier bolts. I think these have been off before, as there was a liberal coating of blue thread sealant, over about 5 threads and covering the inside flange. I really struggled to loosen these off, getting an initial crack with my 600mm breaker bar was fine, beyond that I really did have to use almost all of my mass and strength to undo the bolts and you should have seen the bend on the bar. Thanks to whoever did that  ::)  The next person will not have that problem, torque is sufficient for me.

2. Rear discs. This was interesting. The shoes looked very blue and almost like new in there, yet I would not have expected replacement to be needed by this mileage. There was a reasonable lip on the handbrake part of the disc which I filed away so there won;t be an issue getting the discs off next time, even with the adjuster fully backed off.
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: sgould on 30 July 2019, 07:29:47 PM
Every time I've found a substantial ridge on the edge of the discs, they have been found to be below the minimum thickness.  Have you checked them?

The Aero front discs are 25mm with a minimum of 22mm and the ventilated rears are 20mm with a minimum of 18mm.  But filing the lip on the drum(?) is OK.

For rust treatment, I've been impressed with "Hydrate 80" from Bilt Hamber.  I used it on my rear arches and on the rust on the roof.  I did the roof over three years ago, when I cleaned the brush, I just brushed it out on a rusty chain.  That chain has dangled in the open air since then and it's still not rusty.  No paint over it.

Hydrate 80 can be painted over and also sticks to bare metal.  I slap it on all over, leave it 24 hours, then sand everything down and prime.
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: carrera on 30 July 2019, 07:59:53 PM
I didn't bother checking the disc thickness. I will, tomorrow, but as this is a rescue job I'm not wanting to sink money into it on discretionary maintenance items until it has an MOT.

I have cleaned up the edge of discs before, with some success. Nobody will ever recommend it, but I see it as a low tech version of the disc skimming process that is commercially available. In this case it's just a case of making the discs more presentable for an MOT and also removing the rusty lip that wears the inner and outer edges of brake pads, marginally increasing the pad surface area back to standard again. That's the theory anyway.

I have just looked up the WIS instructions for the caliper bolts. 140NM + 45 degrees plus Loctite 242. I reckon that my right arm inbuilt torque wrench was about that setting  :)  I've never had a caliper bolt come loose so I will be ignoring Saab instructions on this occasion.

Similarly, the caliper slide pins and disc retaining bolts are supposed to be loctited in. As the disc retaining bolts do very little at all, except perhaps make an easy job difficult when the head gets rounded off, I'm not worried about that either.  :)

I have heard good things about Hydrate 80 - I'll have to get some, maybe for use on the leading edge of the rear arches  ;)
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: sgould on 30 July 2019, 08:22:08 PM
I use the blue Loctite that comes in a cylinder and works like a lipstick.  When i came to undo the bolts they were a lot less difficult than when I undid the originals.

Although, on reflection, the ones I took off the first time weren't actually original, they were the 345mm Hirsch upgrade that the local dealer fitted.

WhenI did them up, I got to 140Nm with the torque wrench, but with all my weight on a 36 inch breaker bar, I could only get another 5ļ at most.
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: carrera on 31 July 2019, 11:25:42 AM
First job on the car today, disc wear.

Fronts 23.4mm
Rear 19.4mm

So the fronts are half worn, the rears are nearly new.

I must be super sensitive to rusty ridges

One job I forgot yesterday was the replacement of the front track rod / tie bar. The locknut was impossible to shift, even with heat, in the end I cut enough of the nut away with a disc to be able to release it with mole grips. Upon further inspection I concluded that it was only the end that was bent, so replaced that and guessed at the tracking. It will be interesting how close my by eye estimate was once it's back on the ground and the tracking gauges are on.
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: carrera on 31 July 2019, 05:40:50 PM
An end of day update:

Rear brakes have been reassembled, handbrake adjusted up and it's fair to say I now have a good handbrake, with far fewer turns on the nut at the handbrake lever.  As you would expect, a pair of return springs will be needed.  ;)

The rear subframe bushes have been replaced with a pair of Powerflex poly bushes which I just happened to have on the shelf.

This was the approach I took:

Remove rear bolts
Slacken middle and front subframe bolts
Remove steering rack bolts
Remove top bolt from the rear gearbox mount.

This just gave enough space to get a pry bar in and some wooden wedges to hold the void open. This was taken just before removal of the first bush, a little larger gap was required, only a couple of mm or so.

(http://937carrera.co.uk/IMAG1375.jpg)

The existing bushes were totally shot, so the centre section was forced out at the top, while a reciprocating saw (or alternatively a hacksaw blade) was used to make two cuts in the steel remains of the outer part of the old bush. This allowed the old bush to be levered out and withdrawn from the bottom.

Time to put the new ones in. let's just say that there is a technique to this. The first one took a good couple of hours, the second one about 5 minutes.

The key is to be very liberal with the washing up liquid. I used three fingertips full to coat the top and inner part of the void. Then put the bush in place, slightly off centre. Then raise the subframe up with a jack. The bush will start to slide down at an unusual angle, and then all of a sudden it will almost seem to suck itself into position over the last half of the movement.

I have noticed the the centre aluminium heat insulation is loose so some large washers will be deployed to secure that back in place
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: carrera on 01 August 2019, 02:33:10 PM
The car is back on the ground and I'm pleased to confirm that the knock that happened when starting the car has now disappeared  :)

I checked the tracking, I wasn't too far out, my by eye setting was 40' out, it has now been reset to 15' in, which is close enough

The brakes are working fine and even just moving the car back and forwards I can feel them bedding back in

Time to do some less mechanical stuff.  The SatNav thinks I am somewhere near Orkney and there's not much in the way of roads, how long does it take to acquire satellites as none are being detected at the moment. The GPS aerial is there, though without any rubber protection and from the SatNav history it has certainly been used by the previous owner.
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: sgould on 01 August 2019, 03:42:09 PM
On the old Tomtom it could take 45 mins to acquire satellites and download the ephemera stuff.  But usually less if the car is in an area with a clear view of plenty of sky.
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: carrera on 01 August 2019, 06:22:39 PM
Hmm, I left the car parked outside for 45 minutes with ignition live enough to keep the satnav on (and to nearly flatten the battery)

I'm still sailing around near Orkney  ::)
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: carrera on 02 August 2019, 05:03:15 PM
Yesterday I did a second wash and a first t-cut on the paintwork, I quite like graphite green when I can see it. The bodywork has quite a few scratches, but I'm happy that most of them will polish out with a bit of a mop.

The bend rear door has been removed, so it was time to turn my attention to cleaning the interior. I think the previous owner worked in Scottish Forests, and I suspect he used to take his work home with him. The good news is that the interior seems to be claning up quite well too, it's goping to need a carpet shampoo and a leather clean, but there doesn't seem to be anything too bad that will persist. It's all servicable anyway.

When I got to the back end I did the boot floor, the undermat and the wheel well itself, before turning to cleaning out the side pods. That's when I found the DVD player for the satnav. The door is broken, so I'm thinking if the door isn't closed the satnav won't work correctly.

It's held in place by two screws onto brackets on the right hand side, the same on the ledt, but to get to those you have to remove the side carpet, which means the D-post trim and the right hand shelf guides.

This is what it looks like when you finally get access to remove it, which is my next task

(http://937carrera.co.uk/IMAG1376.jpg)

 
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: carrera on 02 August 2019, 06:09:39 PM
 :(

Well on this occasion the old remove, dismantle, reassemble routine did not work its magic. It looks like a small plastic hinge pin has been broken, with care the door closes fine otherwise

The DVD is being read as I can see the version information, but when I go into setup it still shows the same coordinates and 0 satellites.

I'm going to have to find out how to check the GPS signal, the cable is in the back of the DVD

This is a whole new world for me
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: sgould on 02 August 2019, 06:21:18 PM
The early 9-5 satnav is pure Kenwood.  I don't think that it uses the Saab security marrying, but I've never looked in detail.  but what it means is that the unit can be upgraded.  I've heard of several people who have done it.  Some part with a model name like 3200 to replace the existing 2200 comes to mind.  The updated part may be solid state, but again I'm not sure.

There are some posts on this from a member on www.uksaabs.co.uk called "sandwer" who seems to understand the internal bits.
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: carrera on 02 August 2019, 11:18:38 PM
Thanks, I have done some reading around and it appears that the older Kenwood may be better than the later Denso systems...... and sandwer even has 2017 maps installed

I'm not actually that bothered about the features, I just want to get it working and have resisted the temptation to do the factory reset as I shouldn't really need to do a ctrl-alt-del should I ?

Maybe the next option is to remove the shark fin and make sure the wires are actually connected, as I'm still struggling to find a diagnostic test outside of the head unit display.
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: carrera on 07 August 2019, 12:00:32 PM
Does anbody want to know how to remove the entirity of the rear trim on an estate - because I have now

Progress, but no resolution.

The head unit has been removed, and the trim removed so I could trace the route for the GPS cable from the antennae as I could not get a continuity check on the cable from the roof aerial. In reality, I did not need to do that but in the process found out why the parking sensors were not working. Another connector unplugged for no aparrent reason. ::)

Today I moved the car outside again and reset the unit because that's what the advice said. Being in daylight I could also see the connector better and realised I needed a wire insert on the antenna end as well as the head unit end, replacing the connecting pin, to do a continuity test. The cable checks out fine now, on both the signal and earth sides.

I have also managed to find a service manual for the DV2200, and from that have been able to access service mode which gives more information about the satellites it is connecting to, movement signal from somewhere, I assume the vehicle speed sensor, but maybe not, and a relative bearing which I believe comes from an inbuilt gyroscope. Pages from the SM are attached

So everything is working apart from I have no locked satellites. The service manual talks about leaving the unit on for 20 minutes if the"almanac" is lost, by which I assumes it means an inbuilt database of where the satellites should be based on the date and time, but as the satnav screen is showing todays date and time correctly, I don't believe that is the problem

Some more reading to do, any confirmation of how the GPS works would be appreciated - I haven't joined up with uksaabs at this point
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: sgould on 07 August 2019, 01:41:05 PM
Which bit of trim?  I've had the lot out on my 2007 car.

The side panels unscrew along the top and reveal lots of wiring loom.  The plastic panels around the tailgate are just levered off.  The two plastic trays in the floor at the rear also lever out.

The aluminium track in the floor are bolted down.  There are two spring clips that sit in slots in the track.  Lifting these releases the wooden floor which slides out.

The back seat bases just unclip once the red clips are pulled off.  The backrest on the drivers side has a metal plate that can be rotated a tiny bit by lever/screwdriver to release the outside edge then it lifts out.  The other half needs the long hinge bolt in the middle unbolting and the seat belt unbolting at the floor.  Wedge the belt in the seat top.  If it fully retracts into the seat, you may find it's too far in to allow it to release again.
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: carrera on 07 August 2019, 08:12:48 PM
Thanks for that, though I may have not expressed myself so well in the first para - I had already dismantled the rear of the car when I wrote that :)

After testing the cable out I decided to remove the roof aerial, which with hindsight is something I should have done before now. The electronics were exposed and so I'm now pretty sure I need an antennae.

At least the car has had a proper clean and I treated a little bit of rust that was on one side of the boot opening behind the rubber seal

I'm confident enough that I reassembled everything except the parts that provide access to the antennae

Next task is to get the replacement door from JTC stripped and ready for painting along with the wing and front bumper. Still hunting for a front splitter at a decent price though
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: sgould on 07 August 2019, 08:19:24 PM
The roof bits start with pulling the trim around the tailgate.  The two plastic plugs in the roof come out with a quarter turn.  The dog guard clips unscrew. Also the grab handles.  The end covers over the screws slide off.

I should have more photos of that if you need them.  I have this FM/AM/DAB/GSM/GPS aerial from Blaupunkt.
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: carrera on 15 August 2019, 05:41:55 PM
Well, the rear door, front wing and front PU are off to be painted, so that will make a huge change when they come back and are fitted.

Back to some of the minor stuff. The ACC was giving errors 08 and 11 which are translated as problems with the stepper motors and the mechanism, generally suspected to be either a broken plastic lever or spindle, so I decided to have a go at fixing that today. What a PITA.

I have had both left and right stepper motors off numerous times, and a bit more besides as I was working out how it all works. Even easier when you have a a spare heater box on the shelf. Both problems are now fixed, and it was the motors in both case.

On the right hand side access is very awkward, but there are only two 6mm hex screws that need undoing. The issue here was that something has gone wrong internally on the gear / motor interface. I discovered that the output shaft was free to turn, when a comparison with the other motors showed that they could not be turned by hand. A replacement motor cleared that error code.

On the left hand side access is easier, and the plastic lever and rods all seemed free to move. In fact they were liberally coated with white grease, so I just double checked that both the upper and lower flaps were moving correctly by moving the rod when the motor was out. After a number of removal and replacement exercises I could see / feel that the motor seemed to be wanting to drive beyond the range of the operating lever. I expect some sort of load or resistance sender would have detected that and switched power to the motor off so took the Kwik Fit school of engineering approach to diagnosis and fitted one of the speres I had. Problem solved and no more error codes. I am grateful that all the plastics were intact.

Does the above make sense, and is there any history of repairs being made to these stepper motors ?
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: sgould on 15 August 2019, 08:03:49 PM
I've not heard of any motors being repaired, only kits for repairing broken pivots and rods.
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: carrera on 16 August 2019, 11:28:17 AM
Well, two more small torx screws and the covers are off revealing what I assume is a linear motor in two halves, plastic casings held together by many bent metal tabs. For the moment I have concluded that these are not designed for repair.

For the moment I am moving on, though by comparing the two removed motors I did notice that on the one where the shaft could be easily turned, the armature with the drive gear on it was extended compared to the other. The consequence is that the gear is not engaged in the mechanism to the shaft so the motor would be simply free to spin.

Out of interest, I discovered that while the plastic levers were good on this car, one of the ones on the breaker car was broken, still the motor was good, so making a good heater box out of two bad ones.  :)

Here's a photo that shows what they look like, which came from this page http://home.jtan.com/~joe/saab/code_08.htm (http://home.jtan.com/~joe/saab/code_08.htm) which helped me yesterday. Of course whatever fixes code 08 can also fix code 11  ;)

Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: carrera on 17 August 2019, 06:39:37 PM
Door Mirrors, how difficult can they be  ::)

The car has black mirrors, which shall we say are a bit manky on the triangle and metal areas. Well , I say metal, but it seems to be more like rough chalk.

I have pulled the drivers side off, and looked at the design and it's very different to my blue Aero and all the other cars except for the Glacier Blue one. After consulting EPC I discover that door mirrors changed from 2003 MY and as this is a 2003 car it has the later design. And now it is time for the but. But while the car is an Aero and has the powered folding button on the dash the mirrors that are fitted are non power folding, as they only have the black power connection, not the white one. The connector from the loom is in place.

I have been reading around and it seems that there are differences between PMM for those that have memory seats and those that don't

Have I understood correctly ?

If I am looking for another set to fit, is there any way to identify which ones would work, other than by the twin electrical connectors, which is going to make identifying a suitable pair on ebay quite difficult

I  was testing the memory function for the seats and having confirmed the mirrors are electrically adjustable I went to store some new settings in position 3 and there was no ping. The seat is now dead and the 30A fuse 25 is not blown. Looks like I am going to have to start reading wiring diagrams to get the seat working again  :(  No doubt it will be some clever bus thing that is upset
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: sgould on 17 August 2019, 07:44:23 PM
I'm not with my info at the moment, but the 2003-on mirror heads are a different shape.  They use the same glass,  as the ng9-3.

The memory seats on the 9-5 are self contained as far as the memory and adjustment is concerned.  The I-Bus connection is, I believe, only there to let the car know what is going on.  So I-Bus is for the mirror memory to get the info it needs.  There may  be some other odd bits.

The basic logic of the memory seats is that both front seats have permanent power.  It's the passenger seat that has the control relay that turns the system on via a signal wire to the TWICE which earths it (green wire from memory).  Once on, the passenger seat will work.  Theres a blue wire from pin 28(? need to check this) to the same pin on the driver's seat.  Once the blue wire is live, the memory control module in the driver's seat comes live and you can move that seat as well.  If you by-pass the

The TWICE control turns the system on when the ignition is live. Also when the front door opens, and leaves it on for 30 seconds.  Maybe more.  If you don't use this, you can just earth the green(?) wire from the passenger seat relay and the seats will be operable at any time.  Not sure if this flattens the battery.  I think not though.
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: carrera on 18 August 2019, 12:29:53 PM
Passenger seat is working fine, this morning memory position 1 worked too. The motor was working for 2 seconds, then stopped for a second, then moved again, Battery voltage was 12.49v so should be OK, but the charger is connected now anyway

Then I moved the seat fully rearwards and it is dead again. Time to have a closer examination, but I can't get the rear bolts out of the seat runners at the moment  ::) so electrical tests onto the connectors at the front are my next line of attack.

Update:

Remembering I had a similar problem on the blue one a couple of years ago with sticking memory buttons, I put some contact cleaner down the memory buttons and made sure they were free, then removed both terminals from the front of the seat and checked out connector block 1. I did observe that the plastic cover was already in the open position. This cars electrical gremlins have obviously been here before.

Everything checked out fine, so I reconnected and everything was working with smooth motor connections. The plastic cover was replaced and after a while the 2 seconds on, 1 second off behaviour has returned. It seems like perhaps a micro break in the loom, maybe I will find it, or maybe I will dismantle / reassemble again and everthying will be hunky dory  :)

Further update:

Seems I was on the right track initially. It's the memory buttons  https://www.saabcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=93287 (https://www.saabcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=93287)

Time for some more squirty, maybe after removiing the switch this time
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: carrera on 18 August 2019, 02:39:19 PM
Diagnostic progress, of sorts

The side cover of the sear is off, three T25 torx screws, two on the side behind covers and one underneath at the front which you just have to feel for.

The memory position switch is out, I have squirted some mote contact spray in, dried it with compressed air and tested that each of the buttons operates against the common 12v feed. Similarly made sure there is no continuity between +ve and the other contacts when the switches are off. My meter is showing about 1 M ohms on some of the connections.

When the memory switch is out of circuit, the motors move normally

When the switch is connected there is a beep from SID and the motors become jerky.

Sometimes when pressing a position button, there is the confirmation beep for a new memory position, even when M is not pressed.

There's full battery voltage to the switch connector, and the return paths all show 670 ohms resistance to earth, which I assume is resistors in the memory control module
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: carrera on 18 August 2019, 04:24:13 PM
Sorted.

That high resistance reading on the switch was nagging away at me. The switch unit looked like it could have been one of those switch units that explodes when you open it, but in fact, though it needs a few jewellers screwdrivers to prise it apart, it is actually quite simple inside.

The corrosion was cleaned with IPA and cotton buds. inside each of the rubber buttons is a flat copper connector, I cleaned that as well.

A test fitting confirmed that the seat was now working correctly and the memory button switch likewise.

The hardest part of this job in the end was finding a way to get the middle screw for the right hand cover into place. I needed to have the torxdriver on the screw in the plastic, while at the same time forcing the cover to the back and up to get it into alignment.

A simple solution in the end, and it was apparent from marks on the screws and the loose plastic cover over the connector at the front of the seat that someone had been in there before. They hadn't finished the job properly though.
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: carrera on 18 August 2019, 07:29:31 PM
So, back onto the mirrors after the seat diversion.

The glass removal was straightforward, next task was to remove the frame. This is held in place by 4 x T10 screws. The corrosion problems on these later mirrors is appalling. On two of the screws the heads broke off, on the third the torx bit broke, so now I don't have a T10 security bit.

I drilled the heads off the two remaining screws and removed the mirror surround, and then was able to remove the mirror cover and the plastic plate that goes against the body.

The motor is still in place, and I am wondering if it is worth the effort to remove it ?

If the screws break I need a new mirror head.

If I leave them in place it's just more difficult to remove the surface corrosion to clean it up. Whatever I do I am still faced with separation of the two mirror halves to clean and paint the rest of the mirror in something and I haven't yet worked out how to split the two halves.

Any thoughts ?

   
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: sgould on 18 August 2019, 08:36:30 PM
If they are folding mirrors, you can't separate the two halves.  The hinge is the big tube and I believe that it's swaged out at each end.  So unless you can "unswage and "re-swage", I would say, no.
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: carrera on 18 August 2019, 09:11:26 PM
Oh, thanks for that. I'm not surprised that the motors trip the thermal fuses when the powered mirrors are fitted. With all the extra mass from the oxygen molecules these mirrors were hard to fold back by hand.

Definitely a backward step by Saab in the reliability stakes, plus they get really nasty looking.
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: carrera on 19 August 2019, 12:39:35 PM
Today I started on cleaning up the drivers side mirror mount.

After starting with a wire wheel I ended up moving to a simple half round file and all the internal paint is now removed, well, it largely peeled off.

I'm going to etch primer it I think, but then what paint do you recommend to get the satin finish, in a colour something like OEM ?

Sharing the grot

Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: sgould on 19 August 2019, 01:44:50 PM
It's a sort of white metal/aluminium base, so you will need the correct primer.

Some people have been using "Plastidip" on some things like this.  Despite its name it comes in spray cans.  If used on its own primer, it's pretty permanent, I believe.  If used on a flat surface, it will  stick, but can be peeled off if you don't like it.

It's been used successfully for covering the chrome headlamp surrounds on the "Dame Edna" 9-5 by people who think that there's too much chrome.  It seems to work, but I have only seen the results, never used it.  One result I saw was on the chrome.  The guy didn't like the finished colour, peeled it off and tried another colour.  It seems fairly durable.  It has a semi-matt finish.

I think that "Plastikote" from Wilko is similar, but I've no experience of it.


Otherwise it's a proper paint job.
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: sgould on 19 August 2019, 01:56:46 PM
The motor comes off in one piece with the three shiny screws.  I've never had a problem with those.  Don't try moving the face of the mirror by hand to see if it's free.  That can strip the teeth on the plastic racks that the motors drive up and down.

The motor stays in one piece.  The screws just fix it to the frame.
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: carrera on 19 August 2019, 07:36:47 PM
Thanks for that. Given the experience with the other 4 screws, and after a slight, perhaps even feeble attempt with the remains of my T10 bit, I left the motor in place.  I also left the spring and swaged retainer firmly in place.

The rest of the mirror shell was attacked with a wire brush in my drill and a half round file. The remains of the screws were attempted to be drilled out, but every time the drill bit slipped the ally was attacked, so in the end I drilled alongside the remains of the screw and then used a dremmel to open the hole up to align with the homes in the cover. The inside bottom screw was left alone as that is entirely captive and it remains a good locating pin. I will probably end up using chemical metal and either making a captive nut or just tapping it to retain the replacement screws. The fourth position screw will probably just be sikaflexed in place. None of this is ideal, but in the end the cover will be held securely in place.

Here's a work in progress picture. I used some etch primer at first, followed by a couple of coats of Hycote Satin Black I happened to have on the shelf. With that done I have then used filler to fill the parts where corrosion has removed a layer of metal. I'll leave that to go off overnight and finish off this one tomorrow and see how it looks then

Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: sgould on 19 August 2019, 08:37:05 PM
That looks like something I'll be doing soon on one of mine.  The mirror on the passenger side is from a 2004 car...
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: carrera on 20 August 2019, 03:25:52 PM
Well, I hope your experience when you get round to it is better than mine.

I moved onto the passenger side today, and initially decided not to remove the 4 screws that hold the surround trim in place. After much effort in getting the cover and plastic trim off I realised I would not be able to get sufficient access to paint all the areas that needed painting, even though this side was in much better condition.

My T10 bit didn't fit, which is when I realised that on this side they were held in place with philips, or more properly Pozidriive screws. This time I fed them diesel to begin with, followed by WD40 and a couple of hours to let it all settle in. With a decent driver, forcing pretty much all my weight on the head and using the other arm to gently apply increasing amounts of torque two of them yielded and came out in one piece. Two of them broke at the head as before.

So it would appear that not only have the original power parking mirrors been removed, but the replacement black ones came from two different cars.

Take a look at the picture below. The drivers mirror has been mounted slightly out of alignment, and I have no idea what has happened to the passenger mirror. It does have the correct electrical connectors in the right place on the back, so is this from a 9-3 or something else. The backing pates seem correct 30 495 / 30 496

When it comes to the painting, after progressing with the drivers side this morning,  I think it's better to flat the existing paint down to the metal surface rather than use filler. You end up with a finish that is too smooth otherwise

 
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: sgould on 20 August 2019, 08:38:30 PM
I'm wondering what has been done to your car.  I've had various mirrors on both 9-5s and 9-3s apart and I've not had any issues with the screws seizing.

The only issues that I've encountered have been with the long legs on the painted back cover breaking.
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: carrera on 20 August 2019, 08:47:53 PM
I think the answer is simple....

Scottish air !   :D



Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: sgould on 20 August 2019, 08:52:42 PM
:) :)

Mine lived in North Devon for a while, but then that and the 9-3 have survived on nice greasy London air!!
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: carrera on 21 August 2019, 06:23:50 PM
Today I have been rubbing and painting, getting to the point where I am happy that the finish on the triangles is good enough.

As part of that I did a test using some cheap matt black paint earlier today. I am pleased to say that this provides a better finish than the satin product, so progress there.

It's a perfectly acceptable finish, but in an attempt to get the finish as authentic and OEM as possible I ordered some paint online for the final coats. The technical details are that it is colour RAL 9011, graphite black, 2k air activated, in a matt finish, probably 15% gloss content. My usual local motor factor cannot do the satin and matt finishes in aerosol.

No more progress pictures until that arrives, yes, I'm a tease sometimes  :)
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: carrera on 26 August 2019, 12:21:47 PM
Now it's time for the reveal, as the paint was delivered on Saturday  :)

In the meantime I realised that my steel grey car is a MY2003 so that's the best and most mobile comparison

First of all, a photo showing both painted triangles, the top one being generic matt black, the second RAL9011 matt

Secondly, I painted the other mirror, and then went over it with a matt laquer

Putting these up for comparison for when others decide to do theirs. Is RAL9011 the right colour ? Well, no it isn't but it is probably about as close as you can get without going for a colour matched paint. Even the matt version is glossier than it should be, so a better finish is achieved with the matt laquer.  Interesting that it is a close match with the satin window trims, which is what I used as my guide when selecting the colour to use.

I don't think these are going to flake and peel again, with the number of coats of paint these have now had.

We'll see what they look like again when fitted to the car


Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: sgould on 26 August 2019, 09:44:40 PM
They look fine to me! :)
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: carrera on 10 November 2019, 11:55:33 AM
Back on this one today.

I have freshly a painted rear door, front bumper and nearside wing to fit. Aim is to get it all back together & the car MOT'd in the next week.

One question, does anyone know how to remove the VIN plate on the front wing - I want to transfer it over ?
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: sgould on 10 November 2019, 06:44:43 PM
I thought that I had a picture of the area from my old 2002 car. but it's just off screen...

If a normal adhesive is used, Im have had success with the AutoGlym Intensive Tar & Adhesive Remover, but put on overnight and the item covered with a thick cloth to prevent it evaporating too quickly.  I used it to remove some badges and it didn't seem to be working quickly enough, if at all.  I left the remover on overnight and covered the area with a damp cloth.  In the morning the badge had slid about three inches down the side of the car.  Depends on the glue of course.
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: carrera on 10 November 2019, 08:10:43 PM
I'm thinking a bit of gentle heat may be appropriate too to soften things up, especially as ambient is around 5 degrees at the moment.

I have spent all afternoon assembling the door. Getting the glass and loom in were relitively easy, and the door handle in one pice was a doddle. However I just could not get the unlock mechanism to work. In the end I decided that perhaps gravity could be my friend and put the door on the car, hoping that the angle of the operating rod would be correct.

I have now found the issue. When the outer of the three securing bolts for the lock mechanism is tightened, it somehow messes with the internals of the lock and makes it so that it will not go on the latch or it jams. I can replicate the problem out of the car. This is a s/h door, but I didn't think there was a problem with it.

Tomorrow I will attempt to dismantle the lock to effect a repair........ or nick one off one of my breaker spares if I'm getting nowhere fast
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: sgould on 10 November 2019, 09:49:53 PM
If the adhesive softens, you could try sawing it off with dental floss.  Although maybe fuse wire would be quicker as the paint on the wing is scrap.
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: carrera on 11 November 2019, 12:44:01 PM
Well, there was nothing wrong with the door lock.

Having concluded they are not really meant to be taken apart I went to rob one off the breaker. It was then I noticed the torx head screws, rather than hex head bolts that came off. Grrr, some body had swapped the fixings over on the s/h door and I was simply re-using what was there.

I did think the bolts looked a bit long, but dismissed the idea of shortening them as a bodge, never considered the door had the wrong ones fitted.  That only cost me 3+ hours  ::)

Lock is in and working perfectly

Looks like I have three spare speaker bolts   
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: sgould on 11 November 2019, 02:34:53 PM
Been there...  I biught some secondhand parts and forund that the bit had been "modified" already.  Lots of time wasted.
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: carrera on 13 November 2019, 04:44:52 PM
A brief update - she's almost ready for MOT.

I have to refit the mirror covers and the rear spoiler / high level brake light, but before I did I though I would get her outside in a bit of daylight for a photo.

You may remember that this was the corner that had the accident damage. Looking much better now. I decided the rubber on the bottom ball joint was looking a little bit suspect so decided to put a new one on. Quite a good job too. It was difficult removing the old bolt even when the nut was released. After quite a bit of easing by hand I set the impact gun on it to spin the bolt around. That did the trick, except that the bolt was in two halves. A quick inspection showed that the bolt had been fractured in the accident which could be seen by the corrosion, but it had not broken until I used the impact gun a number of times. Glad I did, and conveniently I had a spare bolt available from the breaker car

I'm still on the lookout for an Aero lower spoiler though

Anyway, here she is

(http://937carrera.co.uk/IMAG1433.jpg) 
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: David on 14 November 2019, 12:17:11 PM
Most impressive results.  8)
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: carrera on 14 November 2019, 05:14:14 PM
Most impressive results.  8)

Thanks  :thumbsup:

Nearly there, took it for MOT today, a couple of really minor things that I'm annoyed with myself for missing and one void bush that I'll need to look into tomorrow.

I rediscovered the problem with the microswitch in the boot lock which means the boot lights stay on permanently. I think another mechanism will be needed.

The mirror triangles look good and I deployed the NOS Saab carpets yesterday (well GM, not quite the same as 2002 Saab quality)

Did you see the garage name on the number plates. Western Saab.......... I thought that was maybe your place, but I think they are in Glasgow, rather than Bristol ??
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: David on 15 November 2019, 09:31:02 AM
As they say it is all in the detail !

No, tis not I, though I do live in Bristol. Western Saab is most definitely Glasgow , unless of course you put a 'Great' in front of it   ;D
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: carrera on 16 November 2019, 03:56:54 PM
Two contrasting pieces of work going on today:

Mirror covers have been fitted, to go with the painted triangles. I'm happy enough with them

(http://937carrera.co.uk/IMAG1434.jpg)

and then the one significant issue from the MOT, upper rear transverse arm bush.

This photo shows what it is like with the rubber stripped off, and my home made tool to attempt to extract the old bush (and then insert the new one). Wish me luck.

(http://937carrera.co.uk/IMAG1435.jpg)
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: carrera on 16 November 2019, 07:29:07 PM
Hmm, 15+ years of rust makes this a tough job doesn't it.

I snapped the M12 bar twice, but on the third attempt I was able to destroy the rose joint and press that out, but leaving behind the outer section. At least that's what I think have done. I opted for a 41mm socket in the end.

The ring on the back tapped out with a punch quite easily, which left the hard steel outer part of the rose joint. I thought they were suppose to come out in one piece  ::)

I'm pretty sure that I just need to cut through this and then the remains of the rose joint will be able to be tapped out once the tension is relieved, but before I go completely crazy with the air saw I thought I would check seeing as I don't have the replacement part yet so cannot check the diameter.

(http://937carrera.co.uk/IMAG1436.jpg)
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: sgould on 17 November 2019, 10:30:08 AM
This might help

http://johnossaab9-5.synthasite.com/9-5-trailing-arm-bushes.php
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: carrera on 17 November 2019, 11:40:12 AM
Thanks for that, but those instructions are for the front part of the trailing arm. The job I am on with is one of the 4 transverse arm / radius arm bushes, item 12 on the relevant EPC diagram, at the outside end of what I would call the cross pieces

I have done the trailing arm bushes before, the Powerflex option is indeed the best route

The construction of the bushes is different, I'm thinking that the steel part of the rose joint is surrounded by an light steel / alloy outer, but before making the final cut want the reassurance that these bits need to be cut out. As usual I think the rust makes a component look more integral that it actually is.  ;D
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: carrera on 18 November 2019, 11:17:22 AM
The replacement part arrived this morning so I was able to measure the diameter, which confirmed I should continue cutting.  I measured it at 45.35mm with a vernier caliper.

Heving felt the absence of movement in the new component, the minor play detectable from the MOT was actually a bush with perhaps very little play in the rose joint, but virtually no resistance to twisting movement, I could move it full range with my fingers..

I did two grooves, and then used a chisel to bend the small piece. Once it started to move the tension was broken and the remains were ready to be tapped out.

Next job will be to clean the interior surface up, lubricate it for insertion, and then pull the new bush in using my home made puller. Assuming that goes well, then when I have done the other minor jobs she'll be ready for a retest

(http://937carrera.co.uk/IMAG1437.jpg)
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: Sheltoncer on 18 November 2019, 09:40:43 PM
Does your homemade puller look like a regular puller, Carrera?
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: carrera on 19 November 2019, 06:22:19 PM
The rescue isn't finished yet, I have located a front splitter which will need a repair and paint, and the rear spoiler is also in for paint, but a significant milestone was achieved today.

12 months MOT, No Advisories,  :Fawlty: :Fawlty: :Fawlty:
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: sgould on 20 November 2019, 10:42:58 AM
An MOT!  Well done. :)

My 2007 estate got an MOT without advisories on Friday. 168,000 miles. Must be time for some TLC if the weather warms up a bit. 
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: Kev_Mc on 21 November 2019, 09:40:25 AM
Good result :)  :thumbsup:

Saved another 9-5. See fewer and fewer about these days..
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: carrera on 21 November 2019, 01:06:21 PM
Good result :)  :thumbsup:

Saved another 9-5. See fewer and fewer about these days..

That's 4 this year:

2004 2.0 saloon
2003 2.0 Vector estate auto
2003 2.3 Aero estate
2005 2.2 Tid estate

This car is going to become my daily driver, and as we like the glacier blue saloon that's a spare. The auto was going to be for my dad, but the insurance cost is silly so he's sticking with his 9000 Aero, so I should move the auto on. You may have noticed mention of a diesel. It's the first time I have ever worked on one of those. I didn't do a thread on that because the the initial glow plug extraction / repair was obvious though technical, and the subsequent non starting  is a common 2.2 problem, complicated in my case by some below par leak pipe remediation work done, which resulted in a missing copper washer seal at the pump. That one's up for sale at the moment.

That leaves me with the 9000 Aero to fix, the DE Aero that I am on with and then bodywork on my current daily, a 329k Aero
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: carrera on 04 December 2019, 06:23:30 PM
A little more progress this evening.

With huge thanks to sgould providing an aerial I now have a working satnav   :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Another little job ticked off. The rear spoiler is about to be refitted having been lost in the bodyshop.

There's more good news though. JTC had a damaged spoiler which was almost broken in two places. After sourcing some plastic rods of the appropriate material I added plastic welding to my skills last weekend. It will need a bit of filler and finishing off, but with a bit of luck I might have a painted spoiler to fit this weekend. It will look like an Aero then.  :)

I'm not sure about the radio though. Touchscreen is definitely more distracting than the original push button. A twiddly knob is easier than the rocker switch too, maybe because it is bigger. It keeps losing it's memory too, but that's probably down to the battery that came with the car which finally gave up the ghost and died. I put another one on yesterday, let's see how that fares and how I adapt. 17 years with the same radio may take some retraining
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: sgould on 04 December 2019, 08:30:38 PM
Glad it all worked! :)
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: carrera on 10 December 2019, 09:51:27 PM
Now I'm using this as a daily, the anticipated gremlins are emerging.

The last couple of days the temperature gauge has not gone to the central position, and after starting the car this morning I had a CEL which turned out to be a P0116.

This seems to be the coolant temperature sensor giving an implausible value, but as the heater was also not as hot as expected I had a read around and the alternate solution was the thermostat.

I tested the sensor and that was showing about 670 ohms which seemed sensible I swapped the thermostat out for a good one on the breaker engine. I do not want to have to do a head gasket job unnecessarily ::)

On my way home I drove with the OBD reader plugged in, monitoring the live temp data. It started out at 50, within 1/2 mile was up to 72, but then dropped back to 70 as I slowed through some roadworks. It seemed to stay at that level doing about 50, then on dual carriageway it rose to 75 and finally finished up at 78 after a 15 minute journey.

The needle was not level and I believe the thermostat is only fully open at 89 so it seems that the car is running cool, but it was warmer than this morning.

Any ideas, or is this normal - I'm pretty sure my blue one would have been up to the horizontal position within about 3 miles ??
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: sgould on 10 December 2019, 10:48:55 PM
That's not normal on a petrol engine.  All of the three cars I've had have reached temperature by the time I get off the estate and onto the by-pass.  About a mile.

If the thermostat is stuck open the engine temperature will be low and the gauge will drop below horizontal on the motorway at a gentle 70 mph cruise.  It should get to horizontal and stay there if you leave it ticking over at standstill.  If I leave my car ticking over on the hardstanding the fans are triggered regularly every couple of minutes.
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: carrera on 10 December 2019, 11:12:31 PM
Hmm, that's my experience / expectation too, and what i thought the green one was doing. Thanks for the reply.

Maybe I need to check the fans more closely when I arrive in the morning. The ECU was seeing -40 C when the sensor was unplugged. The coldest I have ever seen was around -30 degrees C, so the Swedes have a bit of latitude for their colder days :)
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: carrera on 11 December 2019, 11:20:22 AM
This mornings test:

Cold start - read 5 degrees
Within 1/2 mlle up to 50
Then stabilised at 72 on dual carriageway around 70
DC down at 50 teperature dropped to 70
Gave is tome beans for 30 seconds, up to 76
Arrived, back to 72
This is a 15 minute journey
Left it idling,, after 10 minutes up to 92

No fans running at any point.

 I checked the thermostat housing with a thermocouple, that showed something like 82.

Maybe it's just cold, maybe it's because there's no splitter fitted yet and air is being forced over the engine (but then it's just like a non sportskit car), I'll have to get my hands on the grey one to repeat the test.
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: sgould on 11 December 2019, 04:31:14 PM
I still reckon it's the thermostat.  I would take it out and see if it's a bit open in the normal air temperature.  It will only need to be open a tiny bit.  It's a water valve and that type of "open/shut" valve will pass about 95% of full flow at 5% open!!
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: carrera on 11 December 2019, 05:35:18 PM
Hmm, two faulty thermostats ??

Fortunately it's an easy job so I might just have to get one from Bill. I was thinking that perhaps there was some debris / blockage keeping the stat part open. I should have had a proper look, rather than just putting the replacement thermostat in.  ::)
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: carrera on 16 December 2019, 10:44:27 PM
New thermostat from Bill fitted this evening.

The thermostat housing and head were inspected for damage, both were in extremely good condition, they were so clean you would not have thought they had been used. That pink stuff's good.

With no evidence of damage or incorrect fitting the new thermostat was fitted and the car run up to temperature. After a short spin in which the needle went to the horizontal I drove home and the temperature reached a stable 85 to 88 degrees C

Job done, but I'm sure I will look at the s/h thermostat to see if there's any reason why that didn't work. I don't think it's even possible to fit one incorrectly is it, so long as the bleed hole is on the top ?
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: sgould on 16 December 2019, 11:21:12 PM
Hole at the top is all you need to check. 

Was the O ring seated OK?

I think you may fin that the thermostat is opening at too low a temperature, but may be shut a room temperature.
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: carrera on 16 December 2019, 11:31:09 PM
Yes, I think the o-ring / rubber gasket was seated correctly.

It's a bit strange to have two components failing in the same way, especially when one of them seemed to be fine in the other car when that engine was installed. I have been reading WIS to discover just how the system works. It's interesting understanding the different flows at different temperatures, designed primarily to ensure occupants can get heat / defrost availability at the earliest opportunity. The method of operation is not obvious by looking at the head casting with a mirror.
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: fka on 17 December 2019, 11:36:17 PM
Thermostat is something I've been meaning to look at at some point. My needle nearly always sits just under the horizontal. Not sure it's even a huge worry but now you've mentioned it I think I'll start keeping a closer eye on the engine temp, luckily available to me on the OpenSID.
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: carrera on 20 December 2019, 08:34:55 PM
Graphite Green Gremlins  ::)

Electrical ones that is.

Lots of silly niggly things of the type that I never really suffered from on the blue car

* Service theft alarm - Comes up on every engine start, I suspect it will be the usual battery / capacitor issue

* Reversing sensors - These were unplugged at the control box, it seems one or more of them likes to detect things randomly, no errors on Tech 2 I am told

* SID pixels- not many there, I did have to do a repair on the blue one, looks like I need to do the same on this

* RDS time - I can see enough to know the clock / date is not correct. Pressing the two buttons to get the time updates responds with "No RDS time", signal is good and I have tried on Radio 1 / 2 / 4, 4 is usually the one that works. I assume the SID talks to the Kenwood satnav for the RDS signal from FM in someway, or is this a feature from the upgrade ?

* Charging sockets - don't seem to be working

* Locking button - locks, but doesn't unlock, probably a Tech 2 setting

* Chirps when tailgate is unlocked, Tech 2 setting

* Drivers seat manual adjustment knobs now not working, memory positions OK

* Intermittant wipe only working on one delay time
None of this is major, but they'll all take time to sort out
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: carrera on 12 January 2020, 11:12:47 PM
This weekend I decided to have a go at the SID repair.  Doing that would also allow me to set the date / time manually and see if there was some wire missing that was causing the RDS time not to function.

Last bit first, there was no obviously missing or unplugged cable from the head unit (Saab option Kenwood). As I have no problem with setting the time on the other cars I am coming to the conclusion that the head unit is not integrated with SID on this function. Unless anyone knows better.....

edit:  Someone knows and it looks like I was correct http://www.uksaabs.co.uk/UKS/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=154958&start=20 (http://www.uksaabs.co.uk/UKS/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=154958&start=20)  AS1 and AS2 communicate with SID, AS3 doesn't. and now I know what search terms to use https://www.saabscene.com/threads/2004-satnav-as3-software-bugs.86025/ (https://www.saabscene.com/threads/2004-satnav-as3-software-bugs.86025/) How rubbish is that  :(

Onto the SID. Epic fail.

Having done a bit of revision I tried the heating method first, some pixels returned, more seemed to disappear. Moving onto the sticky pads for additional pressure I noticed that about half the ribbon onto the PCB was completely detached. I decided to fully detach it, but did it by peeling without heat and from that point forwards the display was non functioning. I think I tried about a dozen times using insulating tape to initially hold the ribbon in place but I'm now pretty sure I have removed the contact strips from either the ribbon or the PCB.

I suppose it's time to get another one to repair and do a better job on it. I did the one on the blue car and that was almost 100% effective
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: sgould on 13 January 2020, 09:41:38 AM
James Vey over on UKSaabs breaks 9-5s as a hobby.  He's based in Nuneaton, but will post stuff.
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: carrera on 16 February 2020, 03:09:51 PM
A couple of the smaller jobs sorted today:

1. Charging sockets. This car has certainly had electrical gremlins, or do they call them garages. There was something stuck in the drivers socket, so I extracted that with some long nose pliers and confirmed 0v at the socket. Traced back to fuse 34 which wasn't blown and also had 0v on the feed too and then traced further back and got to a common junction for switched live from terminal 54.

Good, so I'll check the feed to one of the other fuses.  They were working, so time to pull the fusebox out for a nosey. Now you know something's not right when you see insulating tape.  ::) For some reason the feed to fuse 34 has been chopped and linked into the output from fuse 39 (telematics & limp home solenoid). The 20A fuse was blown........ well it would, at least before the 30A one for the charging sockets

Not wanting to turn this into a major rewire I simply replaced the 20A fuse and will live with it for now. The only issue seems to be that fuse 39 is a permanent live, so either a previous owner wanted to charge their phone without the ignition being on, or whoever did the mod didn't really care.

2. Drivers seat switches. The connector, which looked a bit crushed had almost separated, so no connection to the buttons. A striaghtforward fix, with the usual fiddling about trying to get the middle screw on the plastic surround lined up and in place
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: carrera on 15 April 2020, 04:05:38 PM
The gremlins are being captured and killed slowly....

The door lock in the centre console was removed and had a high resistance. It was proving to be unwilling to be disassembled so I just dosed it with contact spray and worked it. All good now

It seems I have two faulty reversing sensors, so they will need to be sourced

In case I didn't mention it before the Kenwood satnav does not talk to SID, so the RDS set time will never work

A borrowed Tech 2 means that there are now no audible noises when locking or unlocking the car, just lights

Slowly the car is becoming my own  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: carrera on 16 April 2020, 01:40:22 PM
After getting washed last night, another little job crossed off.

The drivers window glass was errant in its movements and needed a helping hand to seat correctly.

Door card off, a bit of cleaning, reseating the rear runner onto the frame and putting the rubber guide that always fall into the bottom of the door back into place.

I'm now happy that I can ventilate the car in warmer weather.  :thumbsup:

While messing around in Tech 2 yesterday I noticed that the aircon pressure was 3 bar. I'll have to take a look at what that should be, perhaps a bit of gas and that might even work ?
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: carrera on 17 April 2020, 01:23:57 PM
Another day, another job.

Hooked tech 2 up and went through the diagnostics for a/c not working and a/c cooling poor.

Everything seems to check out fine, the evaporator temperature does drop when a/c is on, but just to ambient, or 16 degrees as that was ambient.

When the compressor is on, pressure reading went up to about 6-7 bar, compressor off drops to about 4 bar.

A quick search led me to this https://nissens.com/Admin/Public/Download.aspx?file=Files%2FFiles%2FAuto%2FPosters%2FNissens_AC_System_Diagnostics_Poster_98x68+-+Operating+Pressures+R134A+-+ENG.pdf (https://nissens.com/Admin/Public/Download.aspx?file=Files%2FFiles%2FAuto%2FPosters%2FNissens_AC_System_Diagnostics_Poster_98x68+-+Operating+Pressures+R134A+-+ENG.pdf)

So, as suspected, I seem to be in the classic low refrigerant scenario (scenario 5)

I was thinking of just taking it somewhere, but from a recent post I read I believe there is a DIY approach. Is this effective and how do I "measure" the quantity in the system.

I suspect that it's just the usual gradual loss then it'll be fine, but if it's just going to leak out again I may as well find out the cheaper way. Any other suggestions ??

 
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: fka on 17 April 2020, 02:50:20 PM
Mine has never blown overly cold so I've assumed it probably needs a top up but never got round to it.
From the posts I've read it seems like it's cheaper to get it done professionally than buying a gauge and canister to DIY. Also a service centre will flush the old refrigerant before recharging the system..
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: carrera on 19 April 2020, 02:55:32 PM
As I have a "few" to do, I'm going to see if I can get a deal, standard charge is about £40 I think

Part one of todays activities, a siren repair.

This took a lot longer than it needed to as I didn't have any solder sucker with me, but, eventually, the old batteries came off.

There's a guy on ebay selling the proper battery & cap kits for £33. He also has a website where a pair of batteries were £18. His website is not working correctly, as clicking on menus tends to result in an offer to download a compressed data archive. Not good. When I did get the order through, I got an email 10 minutes later refunding me as the price was in error. Well, I will not be buying from him at all, so found another seller with compatible batteries (and not the CR17335SE type of equivalence)

I bought a kit as a trial, here's the board ready to put back in the housing.

My comparisons tell me that when the batteries are below 3.1v you get the "Service Theft Alarm" message on SID, so as I have a few of these to do I'm going to replace batteries only. It's a shame you cannot read the battery voltage through the three pin connection. Speaking of which it has a battery live, earth and TWICE connection. I'm assuming that in case of a trigger of the anti theft detection systems in TWICE, a message is sent to pin 2 of the siren which will instruct it to sound. Is it reasonable that at switch on a different message is sent which instructs the siren module to provide some sort of feedback on the condition of the batteries, or maybe even continuously ?

I can't see much point for an 18 pin chip otherwise.

Anyway, here's the repaired board. I have drilled the holes in the back cover so that it can be screwed together like the early designs, and have used seam sealer /  PU adhesive to seal any remaining gaps in the plastic from the elements

Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: carrera on 19 April 2020, 05:45:20 PM
Some of these gremlins are well buried  ::)

Next on the list was the intermittent wipe.

I removed the stalk and the rheostat is giving the correct values, 5, 500 and 1000 ohms. Not what I was expecting to find.

It's fortunate that I have another car to compare to, so next I put Tech 2 on it and two very strange things.

A, First of all DICE is permanently seeing 1000 ohms (it says wiper interval is 15 seconds, so maybe that is just default)
B,.Secondly, when I try to activate the front wiper through Tech 2 it doesn't work.

From reading WIS it seems that DICE is not providing a voltage to trigger the wiper relay, that would explain B, but then it would need another fault to explain why the wiper interval is 15 seconds. Maybe if resistance is over ~ 700 ohms it defaults to the 15 second value and an open circuit would do that.

So it's either two wiring issues of a faulty DICE on just the intermittent wipe.  Does that make sense, do DICE modules fail frequently. I have just seen that the module is above the main relay board

To confuse matters further if I move the intermittent delay switch upwards (longer delay) I get one wipe, downwards I get none. That doesn't happen on a normal car.

Stalks have been swapped, relays swapped , just to be sure, behaviour remains the same

Any suggestions ?
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: sgould on 19 April 2020, 09:51:17 PM
I had a look at the wiring diagram and there's only the switch, the relay, and DICE involved.

There are links to the washer pump, do you get any spray? 

Seems that DICE is the likely culprit, unless there are some bad connections.  There are the two big connectors under the LH A-pillar involved and some crimps.
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: carrera on 19 April 2020, 10:15:17 PM
Thanks for that, the description and wiring diagram took a bit of thinking about to understand it properly.

Those connectors by the A pillars are monster things, I remember from breaking the saloon, I doubt they ever go wrong.

Wipers work fine, no daft computers involved, just volts  :)

The washers work fine too, he says, but a couple of weeks ago I noticed that they only seemed to squirt for a second. Tried them recently and they seemed ok.

I have been pondering further..... Do you remember the 12v sockets were not working, a wire had been tapped into another fuse. I wonder if there has been a little fire, not only damaging the 12v sockets, but also the intermittent wiper connections to DICE....... and the washers as well.

Worth a look  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: sgould on 19 April 2020, 10:42:22 PM
I had the manual intermittent wipers on my first 1998 9-5.  The two later cars both came with rain sensors in the windscreen.  Neither of which worked after a windscreen replacement. :(  I tried to fix it, but when I left the screen sensor unconnected, the wipers would only work on slow speed. I couldn't work out quite why, as there wasn't any obvious reason why an "add-on" would affect the basic functions.

 I don't know if the "manual" intermittent has some similar strange linking.  A small fire might explain a lot!!

As an aside, and I'm thinking back to 2002, when I was still able to walk and talk at the same time, I seem to remember that there was a trick that could be done on the wiper delay.  You needed to change the relay for one from another make. Ford or VW come to mind.  These cars had a variable delay which was set by holding the wiper "one touch" down and holding it down for X seconds.  Then the wipers would wipe every X seconds until you flicked it again to turn it off.  We had it on a Ford Galaxy that my wife bought.

Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: Audax on 19 April 2020, 10:46:30 PM
Oh, DICE is an absolute **** try disconnecting it for 10 minutes and manually bridging everything and then adding it back. It will probably all start working.
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: carrera on 19 April 2020, 11:30:45 PM
Thanks both

Is that a module remove / add process with Tech 2 then - more new territory, or just unplugging it.

What do you mean by "manually bridging", as DICE has the timer circuit I don't think I can test the intermittent function ???
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: carrera on 20 April 2020, 09:37:02 PM
Diversion onto more important things today.

When the car passed it MOT I wanted to simply run it for a few miles and let things settle down, see what else needed doing.

Apart from the electrical gremlins the mechanical side has been pretty faultless and i have done about 3,000 miles, so

Time for a service.   :D

I bought a couple of kits from Bill as the grey one is due as well. The oil that came out was a bit dark and a bit thick Plugs looked good, but I have fitted the new ones anyway as I don't have / can't find any service history. Sump is unbolted and as I have the O rings in stock will be dropped for cleaning tomorrow

I also have the cam cover seals in stock, so that'll be on the job list as well, time to get rid of those black oily marks.
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: Audax on 20 April 2020, 10:55:26 PM
Physically unplug from car and then plug it back in again. No need to use tech 2. I'm kind of surprised you get lots of electrical problems, generally they are very good and its wiring problems rather than electrical modules, but I guess the cars are that much older now that modules will start to fail maybe.
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: carrera on 20 April 2020, 11:03:17 PM
Thanks Audax  :thumbsup:

My cosmic blue car never had any of these type of problems with more than 2 1/2 times the miles. Lots of things were not working on this car, silly things, sunroof (unplugged, why), reversing sensors (unplugged instead of replacing faulty sensors), satnav (aerial perished). Whoever worked on it didn't like electrons, or the previous owners just wouldn't pay.
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: Audax on 21 April 2020, 08:56:22 AM
Hmmn, it sounds like you have the problem there of people tinkering and not actually repairing anything, never a good place to start from.

I once had a (very cheap) 9000 which had a lot of modifications to the ACC system, several aftermarket switches had been fitted which when engaged would force the fan to full speed, turn off the air con compressor and weird combinations of the above and other side effects. Eventually I called the previous owner to ask him what they did as it was driving me nuts trying to work out how the system worked. Turns out he had fitted the switches as he hadn't read the vehicle handbook properly and wanted a way to force the interior fan to high speed, he had failed to understand that you needed to hold down the fan button to adjust speed, he just thought it was a 3 speed system! As soon as I reverted his changes it all worked properly.  :-\
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: carrera on 21 April 2020, 04:41:08 PM
I had a feeling that someone had been here before as some of the sump bolts were not as tight as I would have expected. Then again when you look perhaps that isn't the case.

What are those plastic strands ?

Yuk !

(http://937carrera.co.uk/IMAG1532.jpg)
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: carrera on 21 April 2020, 06:16:27 PM

Better ?

(http://937carrera.co.uk/IMAG1533.jpg)
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: sgould on 21 April 2020, 06:37:33 PM
I've seen worse pictures...

But the 2002 car will need the upgraded breather kit.  The full one with all the pipes.  There's a smaller one which only has the pipes that were different from the originals, but at 18 years old, your car will need the lot.
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: carrera on 21 April 2020, 07:08:48 PM
I've seen worse too, but then a lot of them probably also needed more extensive rebuild work.

I'm glad I did this. The strainer didn't look too bad in terms of blockage of the screen, but the black oil was, and the associated attachment of that oil to the sump and internals of the block was worse than I expected to encounter. A consequence of semi synth at some point ?

I think once this is done an early oil change and filter will not go amiss, maybe after 6k or so

The car's a 2003, but probably the same basic system as 2002 so I understand what you are saying about the breather. That's not for today though, I don't want to get the old girl too excited getting fresh oil, filter and breather at one sitting :)  Either that or because I don't have the bits.

In fact if anything, I'm more worried that the fresh oil will be thinner and pressure will be lower, especially as we approach summer with the higher ambient temperatures. I don't want a bing bong  or red light after a bit of mild cornering or after coming to idle after a run.
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: sgould on 21 April 2020, 10:27:56 PM
If you talk to Richard Elliott of Saabtec in Glossop, he's been using Millers Nanotec oil in 10w/60 grade with no issues on older Saabs.  Mainly to stop excess usage and the odd leak.  Not cheap though.

https://www.opieoils.co.uk/p-115240-millers-oils-nanodrive-cfs-10w-60-nt-fully-synthetic-engine-oil.aspx
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: carrera on 22 April 2020, 07:11:07 AM
I have some of that stuff on the shelf, it is very good........ but it's reserved for the more exotic motors, I'm hoping that the standard Morris 5W/40 CST will do the job, it's what the blue one survived on
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: carrera on 22 April 2020, 07:03:54 PM
Todays little update:

Engine service done:

Plugs looked fresh, as did the air filter, so it probably had some sort of service not long ago, but no oil change.

The crossover pipe and feed up the engine were fine. However, when I took the valve cover off the area around the chain was also blacker than expected. I checked the oil pipes, the long one to the chain was fine, but the shorter U shaped one onto the engine side was blocked. That took a bit of clearing with a bike brake cable. I still haven't worked out how the oil gets there though  ::)

Having cleaned the inside of the valve cover, I then cleaned the outside off. Treated it to a lick of black paint. I don't know if the 2003 ones were originally black, but the 2002 ones were so that seemed as good a reason as any to spruce it up.

The valve cover gaskets were old and hard, so new ones were fitted, along with the dizzy plug that usually leaks. I think I then used about a litre of brake cleaner getting rid of the accumumated oil.

Started her up and she sounded sweet. I took the opportunity to listen to the tappets, given the experience with the black Aero. I now know what quiet ones sound like  :thumbsup:

Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: carrera on 23 April 2020, 02:50:06 PM
Well, here's a turn up for the books

Disconnected / reconnected DICE. No change.

I took a look at the wiring diagram and that told me pins 33 and 55 are the pins that the variable resistor in the intermittent wipe switch connect to.

No wires there, no pins in the connector.

What type of Aero didn't have the wash wipe, or have I misread something. I can't believe a replacement or incomplete loom have been installed  ::)
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: sgould on 23 April 2020, 06:26:39 PM
I think that the intermittent wipe was an option that came with the "Luxury Pack".  That included the HK 8/9 speaker system, so maybe a different DICE and loom?  I don't have a 2002 brochure that i can check with.
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: carrera on 23 April 2020, 09:48:38 PM
Intermittent wipe was a much more basic option.

My blue car is a 2002, when the spec was stripped down and BMW approach to extras was being taken. I had to pay for metallic paint, heated seats, Xenons. When the mid year changes came in all three of those items became standard. Intermittent was in the standard package, and also on the breaker car which was a 2002 Vector.

This car is a 2003, so I would expect it still to be standard in the Aero, I think it was 2004 when they started value engineering again, for example removal on the remote release petrol cap

I can't believe that the car has had a replacement loom, and don't forget the loom connector for the variable delay resistor is all there, along with the stalk.

Most confusing

I suppose I'll have to start looking at the connector block to see if there are any other wires of the right colour in other positions ........ or maybe WIS is just wrong ????
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: carrera on 23 April 2020, 10:40:18 PM
This is what I am looking at .......... just spotted that the colours do not match up

Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: carrera on 25 April 2020, 04:15:11 PM
I am in the process of testing the wires from the rheostat to DICE.

Is there anywhere in WIS that has the full DICE pin assignments.  So far I have found that the green / greywire that should go to pin 33 in fact shows continuity to pin 4.

No sign of the Blue / White (reality, violet white from wiring diagram) that should go to pin 55, no stray wires, no continuity to any other pin.

Somewhat inconveniently, pin 4 is showing 12v with the connector disconnected.from DICE. I have the correct DICE fitted 52 63 116.

Very very wierd

Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: sgould on 25 April 2020, 07:27:21 PM
I had a look at the hard copy of the 9-5 that I have, but it's no better than the WIS.

Pin 4 in the connector is permanent 12v from the dipped beam relay.  Or are you saying that the 12v is from DICE when disconnected?

Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: carrera on 25 April 2020, 07:51:01 PM
Thanks for looking  :thumbsup:

I have gone through the laborious task of going through all the DICE wiring diagrams for each system to get the pin assignments, and then compared to the physical reality.

There are quite a few differences, and I haven't got my head round the implications yet.

I agree that pin 4 is a live feed from the dipped beam relay, not instinctively the wiring I would have expected as it is an output from the solenoid winding side, looking for an earth, but I get how DICE can provide the earth when instructed.

I have found two wires of the right colours in unexpected pin positions, but there is no continuity to the rheostat.

More thinking needed, but remember those big connectors on the A post that are so solid no one would even need to touch them ?  I'm beginning to wonder if the wires are crossed there  ::)

How reliable is WIS wiring to reality, especially across the years ?
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: sgould on 25 April 2020, 08:26:58 PM
I have found quite a few errors in WIS over the years, but it's generally OK, but...
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: carrera on 26 April 2020, 11:18:06 AM
Well, I think I have got to the bottom of the problem. Here's a clue
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: carrera on 26 April 2020, 11:21:38 AM
After hours pouring over wiring diagrams, checking the wires to DICE etc, I was about to start checking the wiring lead references and decided to look at the rain sensing wiring and was struck by the scarcity of connections to DICE.......... but the one required wire was there.

 ::) :-[  :-[  :-[

Now, how do I test these buggers  :)

Interestingly, I still have a load of DICE connections that I cannot find in WIS, and some of the colour assignments seem wrong, but I will ignore that as everything else seems to be OK

I knew this was a high spec car, but didn't even think about them being fitted.
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: sgould on 26 April 2020, 11:37:15 AM
Ah! :D

Has your screen ever been replaced?  I had two done and on both occasions the sensor was stuck back in the wrong place and didnít work.
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: sgould on 26 April 2020, 11:48:19 AM
You can test it with a spray bottle. Turn the wiper on to intermittent. It wipes once.  Then spray water on the sensor. If you put on a lot the wipers will go to full speed.  If you do a gentle spray from a distance, you can simulate light rain.
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: carrera on 26 April 2020, 11:52:56 AM
I have no idea, but judging by the screen being the correct tint and having an appropriate amount of little micro chips and scratches I would say not.

From my perspective, rain sensing wipers is one of those technological developments that just are not required

I was going to get the watering can out, but a spray bottle may be better ?

It seems I am at risk of having to read the drivers manual as well  :o

This I suppose is a good demonstration of how sleeping on a problem does allow you to see the solution.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: carrera on 26 April 2020, 01:00:53 PM
Rain sensing wipers functioning correctly  :thumbsup:

Looking back the signs were there all along

I had the manual intermittent wipers on my first 1998 9-5.  The two later cars both came with rain sensors in the windscreen.

and

B,.Secondly, when I try to activate the front wiper through Tech 2 it doesn't work.

When you try to activate front wipers in Tech 2 there is even a warning that says this will not work on a rain sensing wiper system. I just tried again.

This means that the electrical gremlins are pretty much sorted.

Couple of reversing sensors needed
Replace batteries in siren (4 more arrived yesterday)
Occasional drop outs on some of the pixels in SID

I'm going to try and find the errant purple wire for the lighter sockets and see if I can get that back to standard wiring, instead of piggy backing off another fuse
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: sgould on 26 April 2020, 04:56:32 PM
If the windscreen has been refitted, the usual clue is a gap between the body and the rubber seal at the top edge.  If a gap is left, either by the rubber seal not reaching the roof metal, or it's been pushed up so tight that it curls back, you will hear a high pitched whistle as you drive along. :(  It took them three goes to get it right as far as the whistle went, but...

...when they fixed my windscreen they stuck the sensor bracket on with some plastic spacers.  These were the correct thickness, but not in the right place.  So the ring of the sensor was more or less in the right place, but the second part of the sensor behind the small hole didn't line up.   I tried to fix it, but the clear soft plastic of the sensor need to be tight up against the glass as well as lined up.  I got it lined up, but the filler/glue I used relaxed enough to let the sensor move away.
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: carrera on 26 April 2020, 05:07:22 PM
I think that I have the original screen then, the gap along the top looks very even. Bit of a shame when you have to correct a "professionals" job.

The plastic cover behind the sensor does seem to have a broken plastic clip as it is not secure on the left hand side. That may have been down to me when I was trying to get into the sunroof mechanism, I don't know.

Daft question time. How do I reset the service counter. It's currently showing 292 days but I don't seem to be able to reset that using either SID (no message to clear) or through Tech 2
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: sgould on 26 April 2020, 08:31:31 PM
The plastic cover clips always break.  I fixed the cover back with a small blob of Blutac! :)   I'm not sure, but I may have got that from Saab...

You can't reset the service counter yourself unless the "Time for service" message is showing.  You should be able to do it in Tech2, and it shouldn't be a problem. The 9-5 only has ne service schedule.  The 9-3 has a doubles service schedule, main and intermediate, and you have to reset both.  I've seen the option for clearing the message in Tech2, but I don't remember where.
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: carrera on 26 April 2020, 08:50:31 PM
Worrying, I was thinking of the same bodge  ;)........... after removing for a further inspection

I have found the menu option in SID where is says days remaining, currently 292, gone into what I think was adjust and had an option of 365 days or 730 days. I made the selection, pressed OK and it doesn't seem to be modified.
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: carrera on 27 April 2020, 08:43:54 AM
Another day, another sleep, another solution.

Just messing about this morning again and I went into "Recall Service Message"

Logic fail from me as there wasn't one, but that is the route to reset the counter. It now is back to 365 days.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: carrera on 22 May 2020, 08:15:09 PM
Swapped a couple of faulty reversing sensors over yesterday. All was working fine..........until one of the others decided to start playing up at the end of the day.

Bit of a rubbish day really. She broke down on me.  :'(

Low on fuel I put 5 litres in which should have been enough to get home, but 7 or 8 miles later on a long gentle incline there was a cough and no go. 4.7 miles walk to the next petrol station. I must have had my skates on I took just

She didn't want to start when I go back either and then I remembered I had a Tech 2 with me (it was late). I had two throttle position sensor faults and a CPS failure, it was apparently also in limp mode. The fuel pump was working so I cleared the codes and then she started. Most perplexing.

We got home but I could feel a slight irregular miss so I drove more quickly which seemed better  :Fawlty: ;D

So, fuel, fuel filter or CPS ?

The CPS was showing 910 ohms this morning, so in spec. Drove OK without a misfire so I'm starting with the cheap stuff and have a fuel filter on order and we'll take it from there.

Limp mode has me confused though
 
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: sgould on 22 May 2020, 08:22:55 PM
Limp mode on the 9-5 needs a physical reset of the throttle body and the code clearing.  If you leave the code on the ECU, it will trip again.

I had a CPS that was within spec at 20ļC which is the datum that Saab give.  But they don't give a resistance at any other temp.  I checked mine when hot and it was over 1000 Ω.  I don't know if that was normal, but I changed it and the problem went away.
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: carrera on 22 May 2020, 08:35:02 PM
At 23:30 last night quite frankly I wasn't too interested in the various pieces of advice Tech 2 was giving me about the reset process so I just pretended I had done the work, cleared the code and it worked.

Are you expecting the problem to recur, or do you think that was just a rogue set of codes. I suppose I can take the 5 minutes to remove / "retension" the cable.

I measured the resistance when the car had been resting for an hour or so, so probably still well over 20 C
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: Audax on 24 May 2020, 11:31:31 AM
I'd make sure that the throttle body is set correctly and cleaned and clear down all the codes and see how it goes. Also check the firmware version of the T7 software, there was an update which would help with false trips for throttle body out of spec although an 03 car might have already had that update, can't really remember clearly.
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: carrera on 15 June 2020, 04:26:15 PM
Back in the Aero today, so time for a little job or two

A little over a week ago I had the rear parking sensors off again and replaced onether sensor, one that was initially good and then promptly failed within 24 hours of refitting everything.

After that I swapped over the siren module for one I had repaired. Cut my hand to ribbons on the sharp plastic trying to get the old one off simply due to access. The scratches have almost healed now, but the best tonic was switching the car on and SID pronouncing "Check OK"  :)  No errors when doing a full Tech 2 scan either.

Following the unusual breakdown a couple of weeks ago I borrowed a CPS sensor from another engine today and am going to give that a go. I had found that on a cruising throttle the car felt as though it was ever so slightly hunting or missing, but only when hot and on journeys of over 10 miles. No errors showing. The car would pick up and run fine if you wanted to go faster

I'll see if this makes any change, and then if not then it will be time for a fuel filter change. One thing at a time as I want to know what the actual problem was.

It's the first time I have done the CPS job. I found it easier to access from underneath, rather than from the top if that helps anyone else.

The one I took off measured 920 ohms, the one put on said 915 ohms
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: carrera on 20 June 2020, 03:22:06 PM
Yesterday I took the car for an aircon regas. That worked, so now the ACC is working correctly, we'll have to see how long this lasts, there was 100g of gas in there, but still getting 3.5 bar pressure.

On the way I noticed that the engine was pulling better, the boost gauge went into the red more easily and it seemed to be running smoother.

Am I imagining things, or could the old CPS have been on it's way out and causing a reluctance to boost at lower speeds. If so I'm trying to understand the failure mode ???

The breakdown may have just been the CPS then ?
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: sgould on 20 June 2020, 04:26:06 PM
CPS triggers the spark.  If it's failing, it might miss a few or send the signal "late".  In which case the various sensors might not see a complete match of all the parameters.  But I'm guessing, as usual.

Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: carrera on 11 July 2020, 11:04:47 PM
She's being a bit of a tease at the moment.

Running fine, but not wanting to deliver the full beans.

I read the ECU a couple of days ago and enabled opensid so I could see more of what was going on.

Airmass request is up at around 1130mg / combustion, which is about normal, but the amount delivered is no more than 900 mg /c.  Boost is only about 0.55 bar, which isn't much more than base boost. The PWM for the control valve was increasing at high airflow request, so that appears to be electrically functioning. The dump valve is holding vaccuum.

The fuel filter was changed yesterday, and though it was not fresh, there were no signs of blockage and it made no difference. I tried the "bolt mod" on the pipe to the cobra with no change and also bypassed the control valve so boost was purely mechanical. At least I think that was what I did. Again no change.

I don't think I have an intercooler leak, the pipes seem OK and I have no reason to suspect that the turbo has suddenly lost the ability to provide flow.

I'm scratching my head a bit on this now, she drives perfectly well with no fault codes, just a bit short of breath. 


Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: fka on 11 July 2020, 11:58:10 PM
must be a boost leak somewhere or something's opening that shouldn't. BPCV mechanically not working despite PWM appearing to be ok?
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: carrera on 12 July 2020, 07:25:11 AM
Well that's encouraging as that's exactly the areas I was thinking about. I tried to bypass the BPCV with no difference, in fact I did go to swap it out and then found it is help onto the metal plate by rivets not screws. Why, oh why oh why Saab ?

I might just chuck the whole spare engine loom into the engine bay for a test
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: carrera on 12 July 2020, 04:30:58 PM
There was not enough room to chuck the spare BPCV in with the loom so I removed the rivets and swapped it over. No change, so my BPCV is good.

I removed the MAF in case there was a blockage, and noticed that the lower rubber section where the outlet pipe connects to the cobra was bent over. Ah, potential for unmetered air. Fixed that, mReq increased to 1200 but Mair remained at 900. Little tease, more potential, but no delivery.

I also put an airline onto the cobra having blocked off the intercooler pipe to the plastik intake pipe. I didn't detect any leaks.

More thinking required, and I probably need to learn how the T7 valve works
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: fka on 13 July 2020, 02:52:42 PM
Are you talking Bypass Control Valve or Boost pressure control valve, APC? I meant the APC.
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: carrera on 13 July 2020, 03:27:24 PM
 ;D

So many things with similar names where the descriptions people use are different to Saab WIS. I'm easily confused.

I was talking about the control valve on the bulkhead, that manages over run situations and according to WIS can cause low Mair if it is failing.

The "APC" / T7 control valve on the top of the cobra I have not swapped, but I did remove the top pipe and block the connections with a bolt on that pipe and the cobra.

No difference so I assume it's working correctly.

I need to re-remember the bolt mod I saw on Saabscene about 15 years ago with the one way valves, one of them is on the right hand wing. I had that problem on the blue car. I thionk that's more related to the EVAP part of the system, but it has the same effect ???
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: sgould on 13 July 2020, 05:47:53 PM
The bolt mod on the APC is a bodge that tries to mimic the removal of the second EVAP non-return valve.  Saab removed the second valve for 2006 onwards.  It won't improve things if the remaining valve is leaking...

the picture shows the pipe to remove.

Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: fka on 13 July 2020, 08:21:01 PM

The "APC" / T7 control valve on the top of the cobra I have not swapped, but I did remove the top pipe and block the connections with a bolt on that pipe and the cobra.


It's been a while since I've looked at one but isn't the top port the return, going to the cobra? You'd need to remove either the collector (bottom, that goes to the compressor housing) or wastegate (middle, that goes to the actuator).
Then in theory you should hit overboost fuel cut when you give it some welly.
0.55bar is close enough to be base boost.
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: carrera on 13 July 2020, 08:32:15 PM
I really need to get my head around how it all works.

Yesterday I was reading other threads for suggestions, I'm fairly sure one had contributions from Karl Noobtune, while the other was over on Saabcentral, so was just following instructions really.

The illustration above is one I recognise, I thought that is what I had done, but I am not so sure now.

It seems there are any number of bolt mods too  ::)
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: fka on 13 July 2020, 09:12:31 PM
Again it's been a while since I tried the bolt mod on my 9-3 (I ended up removing the hose highlighted in Will's pic as it's a slightly more elegant solution). What you did is probably correct, assuming the boost leak is due to a failed non-return valve on that line to the EVAP system.

The APC is normally open (C port to the W port) - i.e if it's not working at all (When on boost it should be diverting the pressure from the compressor away from the wastegate, to the return port) you'll get base boost.
As you know, the signal to it is PWM, the higher the PWM number on openSID the harder the APC (and ECU) are working to to try and divert pressure away from the wastegate. You'll see PWM hit 980 when you floor it and then it should slowly level off. If you're not achieving MREQ and PWM stays at 980 then the APC is incapable of controlling the actuator/ achieving target air mass . Which could be a weak actuator, or at higher target air masses - that the return port is too restricted or the the C port not restricted enough.. or a boost leak..
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: carrera on 15 July 2020, 07:49:35 PM
No chance to do any work on this yet, but I did notice something on the way home.

Only in certain circumstances do I see a PWM of 980, and it then instantly drops down to something around say 660-710. It'll then bounce around a bit and move upwards as the engine speed gets to 4000 rpm.

Idle the value is 20, and light throttle to maintain speed at 55mph is about 120.

I also spotted the Mair tracks Mreq at demands up to about 750, after than Mair lags.

It seems as though the demand to increase airflow by allowing boost is being given, but then something is pulling it back.

I have already done another map to make ECMStat available so I can see what limit is in operation, but I have not had the opportunity to upload it yet.

If there was a leak from the intercooler, then would the MAF record the increased airflow, but then the leak would cause lower airmass in the intake and the MAP sensor would correct the fuel quantity delivered, or would it just run rich. ???
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: fka on 15 July 2020, 08:59:50 PM
You should see PWM = 980 when you WOT, then settle down (according to Karl) to around 700>800. Then climb to 980 again at the top end of the rev range. So yours sounds about right.
I'd be interested to see what it does if you reset the ECU and try and go through adaptation again. I'd wonder if it would just stay at 980 and not be able to adapt. Although it's probably quicker and easier to just chuck a known good APC on it.

I don't think it's too odd that MAir tracks MReq to 750, you'd probably see that behaviour if you connected the actuator direct to the compressor outlet.

Just out of interest, have you watched the knock count when you put your foot down?
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: carrera on 15 July 2020, 09:12:46 PM
Ah, I pulled fuse 17 a couple of days ago after swapping the bulkhead valve over, just in case it had adapted to my recent gentle driving. No change in performance.

I don't think I have seen any knock count, best go looking for where I can find it and see what it is doing
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: fka on 15 July 2020, 09:18:26 PM
Could be holding back because of knock, or false knock.. Failing DIC or in my case I had a dodgy earth - possibly two. Although in my case it was very intermittent and only when fully up to temp. I see no more than 900mg/c on a stage 3 map.
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: carrera on 15 July 2020, 09:22:32 PM
I think I see more than that on my non-Hirsch grey one ???

The green one has no error codes. The grey one throws 1312 and 1334 randomly and occasionally on start up. Maybe my dodgy DIC is better than my good one :)
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: fka on 15 July 2020, 10:03:20 PM
I had no error codes with the bad earth, just the symptoms.
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: phoenix on 16 July 2020, 09:05:29 AM
If it's a knock issue, MReq drops. I've been chasing it on mine for some time. It's intermittent (of course) but the symptoms are floor it and only get Mreq of about 900 or so. it will slowly climb but doesn't get anywhere near where it should be. So far I've run new earths in and changed the DI for a genuine brand new one.
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: carrera on 16 July 2020, 09:40:56 AM
Without wanting to teach granny to suck eggs....

Have you enabled ECM Stat in Opensid ?

I thought this was giving the limit for Mair, but I just read something which says it says what is limiting Mreq

Useful links here https://www.trionictuning.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=11688 (https://www.trionictuning.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=11688)
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: carrera on 16 July 2020, 02:50:30 PM
I have uploaded the new map to the car.

I believe that ECMS is showing the Mreq limit, after a bried drive I have seen the following limits in operation:

10 - Limit is pedal map (i.e not pressed)
12 - Idle control
20 - Max engine torque - this happens when building speed from low revs, the torque being created is limited by the map (to avoid overstressing the engine / box, especially 5th I think)
41 - Min load - on the overrun
50 - Knock airmass limit - this is the limit that dictates the shape of the power curve once past the low speed engine torque limit

All seems to be working as designed, I need to look elsewhere. Earth next
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: carrera on 16 July 2020, 04:39:08 PM
Earth was clean. Cleaned it, refitted no change.

Decided to do the bolt mod again, as detailed in the Saabnoob post I linked to.

Top pipe off, block that pipe, leave the port open.

 :Fawlty: :Fawlty: :Fawlty:

Now i need to find out if it's the APC, or one of the one way valves in the EVAP system I think ?
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: carrera on 16 July 2020, 06:14:47 PM
Odds on it's a one way valve, so after looking on WIS and EPC I didn't really get a good view of the components involved. Then I had a bright idea. I should have one off the breaker. Found it, tested it, one of the one way valves has failed, I can blow from the manifold end all the way to the T7 valve  ::)

As I didn't want to have wasted my time getting this out, I thought it was time for a picture and a schematic

The valve that has failed on this pipe is the one on the left. Exactly what I think has happened to the green car. Do you agree ?

I am relieved that I didn't remove the pipe from the car first.  :thumbsup:

Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: fka on 16 July 2020, 09:20:47 PM
Sounds like you've got it.. I refer you back to Will's diagram, it's the valve on the line marked with a red dotted line. Just remove it and either blank the T pieces or replace with a new hose. That line is deleted in the later cars..

With ref to ECMS - these were Karl's wise words when I asked him if he'd enabled it on OpenSID when I was hunting for the cause of my high knock count/ max MAir of 900mg/c..
"ECMS will only tell you what the ECU is being told but if that is due to a duff/fake DI or a bad battery or earth then searching for knocks is going to be a red herring."
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: fka on 16 July 2020, 09:25:56 PM
If it's a knock issue, MReq drops. I've been chasing it on mine for some time.

You've still not got to the bottom of it! That's a major bummer  :o
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: carrera on 16 July 2020, 09:30:16 PM
Thanks

I couldn't make sense of Wills' diagram, that isn't how it's piped on the earlier cars...... or I still don't get it.

They're a challenge to get off aren't they. Got one side off, but on the other side it seems as though the plastic inner liner has separated from the rubber outer and is firmly shrunk onto the plastic nipple with the retaining ridges.

I thought I would experiment with that before trying to source some more valves 

I have seen MReq up at 1200 and Mair at 1060 on the run home  :Fawlty:
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: fka on 16 July 2020, 09:33:40 PM
Sounds like you've got it.. I refer you back to Will's diagram, it's the valve on the line marked with a red dotted line. Just remove it and either blank the T pieces or replace with a new hose. That line is deleted in the later cars..

Sorry I take that back - it's the valve going to the intake isn't it..
That's odd because if that one has failed, it should only constitute a boost leak if the EVAP valve was open when you were on boost - which it shouldn't be! Has you EVAP failed too?
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: fka on 16 July 2020, 09:40:20 PM
I've always found this helpful. It's correct I think for your year..
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: carrera on 16 July 2020, 09:43:08 PM
Ah, I have seen that before, but didn't come across it when reading WIS this evening.

That is correct for this car  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: sgould on 16 July 2020, 10:20:20 PM
The red line is the one to remove. Incl. the non-return valve (13) on that line.
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: carrera on 16 July 2020, 10:35:25 PM
Sounds like you've got it.. I refer you back to Will's diagram, it's the valve on the line marked with a red dotted line. Just remove it and either blank the T pieces or replace with a new hose. That line is deleted in the later cars..

Sorry I take that back - it's the valve going to the intake isn't it..
That's odd because if that one has failed, it should only constitute a boost leak if the EVAP valve was open when you were on boost - which it shouldn't be! Has you EVAP failed too?

No I don't think so

What I have at the moment is a pipe that goes from the inlet manifold through to Connector R on the T7 valve with no restriction.

Because I don't understand the electronic boost control yet, I'm assuming that the pressure presented to the R connection helps to open the wastegate.

On the modified pipe removal, I do get that. I was thinking along similar lines, all that is needed is to allow the fuel tank gases to vent into the intake manifold, there's actually no need to feed them into the R port / cobra pipe.
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: fka on 16 July 2020, 11:05:16 PM
R is return and connected to the inlet (cobra) so there is only ever a negative pressure on that line. When the APC is bleeding pressure away from the actuator (W) from the compressor (C) - it goes to R and back into the inlet (cobra) to maintain measured air mass.

I can only assume that the line from the EVAP to the APC (actually to the cobra) is there so that if the EVAP valve is open under boost, it would still purge back into the inlet/cobra. But the EVAP valve "should" only ever open when there is a negative pressure at the intake manifold.. so it's pointless..
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: carrera on 17 July 2020, 08:22:02 AM
Not cheap are they !

https://www.saabits.com/saab-original/saab-5322169-line

£389.44

I'll have to ring Bill and see if he has an alternative solution, as I know he has the 3mm one way valves for vac lines. I think these are 10mm ??
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: fka on 17 July 2020, 10:01:18 AM
As long as you use fuel grade hose, can't you just cut and replace the line with the broken non-return valve, using an off the shelf valve?
Here's a pic of one I replaced on my 9-5 (06 so different setup). I used a working valve off some old line from my 9-3 and replaced the hard plastic hose with silicon..
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: fka on 17 July 2020, 10:04:55 AM
Sorry the pic
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: fka on 17 July 2020, 10:14:14 AM
And yes the hose I used isn't fuel grade  ::)
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: carrera on 17 July 2020, 07:01:34 PM
Couldn't get any valves locally and Bill didn;t have a solution so I ordered from ebay..... three arriving tomorrow if postie does his bit.

I did a 50 mile journey today. saw a bit over 1200 on Mreq, with 1178 on Mair, 1.1 bar boost showing. That seems rather good (with apologies to Phoenix)
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: phoenix on 23 July 2020, 08:51:34 AM
Without wanting to teach granny to suck eggs....

Have you enabled ECM Stat in Opensid ?

I thought this was giving the limit for Mair, but I just read something which says it says what is limiting Mreq

Useful links here https://www.trionictuning.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=11688 (https://www.trionictuning.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=11688)

I didn't need to for my diagnosis- I had Tech2 hooked up and the knock detect status was on.
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: carrera on 24 July 2020, 03:37:16 PM
Well, my one way valves finally turned up.... they had been sent RM48 not 24 anyway, but still nearly a week.

I bought three "10mm / 3/8 inch" aluminium one way valves. The EVAP side on the valve pulled off nice and easy, but the manifold side did not want to come off, it seemed to have melted onto the plastic valve and in the process shrunk on. There is a plastic inner layer on the pipe. That seemed to have separated from the rubber outer too.

Thinking about it, this makes sense. When the one way valve fails, the pipe gets exposed to inlet manifold temperature air, because it is flowing when the valve should be stopping it. I could not remove the old one way valve so cut the nozzle part off and drilled out the remainer until I had a clean pipe.

The one way valve was a reasonably snug fit on there, and the blow test in both directions had the right result,, so things were looking good. On the other side however, the pipe was larger and the valve just fell out.  ::)

I had been unsure whether to buy 12mm or 10mm valves. Next time I'll buy a 12mm, but for this repair I have simply used Sikaflex around the nozzle to fill the gap in the pipe and provide the seal. Not ideal, but I believe it will work - Sikaflex is resilient stuff.

That's going to need a day to go off properly, and then it will be time for a pipe swap

I'll put a picture up later

 
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: carrera on 24 July 2020, 04:16:04 PM
Here's the photo, manifold to the right
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: sgould on 24 July 2020, 05:33:02 PM
I always assumed that the valve was heat-shrunk on, like the non-return valve on the 2004-on PCV system.  It was certainly well fixed when i looked when the car had done 10,000 miles.

Also, I think the pipe is harder plastic to prevent collapse if there's a vacuum, and the rubber cover is just to prevent damage.
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: carrera on 24 July 2020, 06:07:44 PM
You could be right on the selection of materials, makes sense.

Anyway for those who are curious, here's the failure mode:

The one way valve is nothing more than a piece of rubber type material as a diaphragm, which is held in place by a small nipple which is pushed into the plastic housing.

When the nipple breaks off, the diaphragm is free to move about and air can bypass.

Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: carrera on 28 July 2020, 08:57:51 PM
I swapped the evap pipe over today for the one I had prepared Blue Peter style. Everything was reconnected, went out for a test drive and  :Fawlty: was confirmed by 1138 Mair on a quick 4th gear acceleration barely 500m from home.

I blew down the pipe I had removed, and, as  expected, confirmed exactly the same failure mode as the one I swapped.

Always good to have a spare on the shelf, as I will soon.

Having Opensid and knowing what the readings should be makes the diagnosis quite simple now

Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: sgould on 28 July 2020, 09:23:44 PM
I did something similar last year.  I think I've cracked the rigid pipe because I get a strong smell of fuel from time to time.

But good to know that the EVAP leak causes these problems.
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: carrera on 02 August 2020, 09:03:36 AM
I have now fixed the original EVAP pipe and now i know what to do it is really very easy.

1. Pull the valve out of the EVAP valve side of the pipe
2. Hacksaw off the nozzle on the manifold side
3. Run a 7.5mm drill up the nozzle remnant, increase to 8mm to clean the last bits out.
4. Push the replacement 10mm valve into the manifold side
5. Coat the open nozzle with Sikaflex, push the pipe into position, support the valve with something so that it is aligned properly for fitting in the car and wait 24 hours.

It probably takes as long to get the Sikaflex tube ready for use by removal of product that has gone off than to do the do the other mechanics.   
Title: Re: Graphite Green 9-5 Aero rescue
Post by: sgould on 02 August 2020, 09:44:55 AM
I know the problem of clearing guns and tubes.  Iíve been redecorating the bathroom and have just got to the stage of reusing the foam aerosol and the silicone sealant after about six weeks... :)