Author Topic: Smoky Turbo ?  (Read 747 times)

carrera

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Smoky Turbo ?
« on: 18 December 2018, 07:01:52 PM »
I picked up a breaker car last week, primarily for the transmission control module and possibly gearbox to fix my silver rescue project. I also thought I could drop the 2.0 engine into my glacier blue rescue http://www.saabtechtalk.com/forum/index.php?topic=3934.0

Some bits of the engine were missing, but I took the peripheral parts of the glacier blue engine, fitted them and went to start the car. It hasn't been turned over for 2 years, but it started on first turn of the key. Yay  :)  No exhaust, no lambda sensors, incomplete vacuum system.

There was some smoke, which I expected to dissipate when the engine warmed up, but I then noticed it was blue smoke, rather than condensation. Left it running 5 minutes, turned off and restarted a couple of minutes later and the smoke was worse.

I'm thinking the turbo seals have gone.

Does that make sense. If it is I suppose I will need to swap over the turbo's before I pull the engine out ?

Any further thoughts ?

9-5 Aero Estates, 2002 Cosmic Blue, 2002 Steel Grey, 2003 Graphite Green, 2003 9-5 Glacier Blue 2.0 saloon

sgould

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Re: Smoky Turbo ?
« Reply #1 on: 18 December 2018, 07:06:51 PM »
Valve stem seals have also been known to fail, but that usually gives smoke on the overrun.

You can get an idea of the turbo seals if you check for play in the turbo shaft.  If the exhaust is disconnected, the shaft is accessible.  You could also remove the metal cobra pipe on the inlet and check that end too.  There should be no play sideways and hardly any along the shaft.
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carrera

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Re: Smoky Turbo ?
« Reply #2 on: 11 January 2019, 02:49:42 PM »
Thanks, finally back on this.

As the exhaust is already off I stuck my finger in and had a feel, as you might say.

Not as easy on the B204 turbo as the outlet housing is different to the B235 turbo. Comparing it to my "working but a bit smoky" unit on the shelf there was neither axial nor radial play, but it did seem to need a little bit more effort than I expected to spin the turbo.

The outlet housing was liberally coated in oil, with some splatter onto the floor and components on the left hand side of the engine bay. I have cleaned it up and start her up as I need to shuffle the car around
9-5 Aero Estates, 2002 Cosmic Blue, 2002 Steel Grey, 2003 Graphite Green, 2003 9-5 Glacier Blue 2.0 saloon

carrera

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Re: Smoky Turbo ?
« Reply #3 on: 13 January 2019, 11:53:10 AM »
A further update:

Started the car- there's a turbine whine from the turbo when on fast idle, it disappears when the engine drops onto normal idle. On initaal start there's a lot of smoke, then it settles down as the fast idle drops and then as the engine gets up to temperature the blue smoke increases.

I hadn't touched the accelerator up to this point. I decided to to give it a couple of blips. Cue huge, and I mean huge, billows of smoke as the revs dropped with increased smoke production from that point.

I'm more convinced that I need to swap turbos over. Time for a bit of penetrating oil on the exhaust nuts I think.

How important is it to drain the coolant - absolutely necessary or will a poly bag under the header tank cap be sufficient to prevent air entering as water drains ??
9-5 Aero Estates, 2002 Cosmic Blue, 2002 Steel Grey, 2003 Graphite Green, 2003 9-5 Glacier Blue 2.0 saloon

fka

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Re: Smoky Turbo ?
« Reply #4 on: 13 January 2019, 06:48:56 PM »
You'll loose most of coolant and a little oil. I drained the first time I took a turbo off but decided not to when I last took one off, it was a mistake!  ::) 

carrera

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Re: Smoky Turbo ?
« Reply #5 on: 13 January 2019, 07:43:33 PM »
Thanks, just the advice I was looking for.  :)

9-5 Aero Estates, 2002 Cosmic Blue, 2002 Steel Grey, 2003 Graphite Green, 2003 9-5 Glacier Blue 2.0 saloon

wallsm

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Re: Smoky Turbo ?
« Reply #6 on: 26 February 2019, 02:09:57 PM »
Hi Carerra, its worth checking the oil pressure relief valve, when its stuck and the pressure goes through the roof ( due to sludging most times ) the easiest point of release is through the turbo.
Its a 17 or 19 mill bolt on the bottom right of the engine.

carrera

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Re: Smoky Turbo ?
« Reply #7 on: 11 April 2019, 10:48:33 PM »
It's been a while since I did an update on this.

The turbo was removed, all the bolts came of nicely. There is loads of axial play on the inlet side of the turbo so it looks like the bearing / seals are shot.

I have put the one off my glacier blue car on and will fire it up when I have had chance to reconnect the coolant and oil connections. Fingers crossed :)
9-5 Aero Estates, 2002 Cosmic Blue, 2002 Steel Grey, 2003 Graphite Green, 2003 9-5 Glacier Blue 2.0 saloon

carrera

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Re: Smoky Turbo ?
« Reply #8 on: 19 April 2019, 04:21:52 PM »
Simple pleasures.

I managed to get some time today to put finish swapping the turbo over. Before fitting it I gave the turbo and the cobra pipe a nice clean, so if it works, they will also look reasonably nice.

More to the point, I also have a handy reference for the turbo that's actually fitted. Now I just need to decide whether to drill out the broken stud for the support bracket now or later when it is installed. Ready to reinstall.

9-5 Aero Estates, 2002 Cosmic Blue, 2002 Steel Grey, 2003 Graphite Green, 2003 9-5 Glacier Blue 2.0 saloon

carrera

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Re: Smoky Turbo ?
« Reply #9 on: 20 April 2019, 05:37:47 PM »
It took me a good few hours to remove the remains of the bolt for the turbo support bracket - I don't have a drill stand so this was all by eye / hand.

The job was made much quicker when I bought a couple of deWalt cobalt drills, so much quicker than my good quality, but non cobalt drills, which were hardly touching the bolt. Unfortunately I ended up drilling a bit off centre and in the process of removing the remnants of the bolt ended up taking the side out of the threaded hole. I have cleaned up the threads and the bolt does tighten, but I am going to chemical metal the portion that is missing and retap it so that full threads are available. It's an improvement on a bolt that's broken in anyway. ::)

Today I moved onto refitting the turbo. Fiddly little job isn't it with limited access, especially to the oil feed on the top. Anyway, all was reassembled, coolant replaced and she fired up first time.  :)

The diagnosis of a failed turbo seals was correct. No more smoke pouring out of the exhaust, just the usual wisps of oil and coolant as the heat built up.

I do have a small weap from the water connection on the top of the turbo. As my next challenge is to remove the engine from the car, I'll leave it for now and attend to that when the engine is on the deck.

The engine has done 138,000 miles. With the black smoke out of the way and a decent idle I could hear some noise from the timing chain. Constant, fairly high pitched, but no rattles. Does that seem OK, I suppose I should consider checking the extension on the tensioner ??

Thanks for the advice along the way  :)
« Last Edit: 22 April 2019, 04:34:35 PM by carrera »
9-5 Aero Estates, 2002 Cosmic Blue, 2002 Steel Grey, 2003 Graphite Green, 2003 9-5 Glacier Blue 2.0 saloon

carrera

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Re: Smoky Turbo ?
« Reply #10 on: 15 June 2019, 04:29:39 PM »
Time to bring a conclusion to this story.

The engine is in the glacier blue car, after putting the cam cover plug in and resealing the cam cover http://www.saabtechtalk.com/forum/index.php?topic=4029.0 the car was fired up.

No smoke, all gears available, no leaks, no warning lights, I'm happy.

The high pitched whine that I heard from the timing chain when the exhaust was off is still there, I did check the extension of the tensioner and it was about at the limit, but for the moment this is one car rescued from the breaker car.

Engine bay - the valve cover got a bit of tidying up along the way



and the car itself, it's a picture I put up before 

9-5 Aero Estates, 2002 Cosmic Blue, 2002 Steel Grey, 2003 Graphite Green, 2003 9-5 Glacier Blue 2.0 saloon

sgould

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Re: Smoky Turbo ?
« Reply #11 on: 15 June 2019, 05:16:07 PM »
Well done! :)   

The last time I did something like that was a 1275 engine into a Morris Minor.  I got very oily and got dermatitis :(  I've avoided too much oil since then...
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carrera

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Re: Smoky Turbo ?
« Reply #12 on: 16 June 2019, 09:49:36 AM »
Cheers.  There's a bit more space to get an engine into a Moggy Minor than in a 9-5, and I think my skin sees car fluids as moisturiser. :)

I am quite pleased that all the pipes and wires seemed to fall back into the correct locations, though getting the aircon compressor back into place certainly has a special technique to get the hook in place.

A few possible learning points following the conversion of the auto engine to the manual installation.
  • As advised, the vacuum pump hole at the end of the camshaft  needs to be filled with the bung/ seal
  • Wiring loom - I just swapped to avoid problems, but I don't think there was actually any difference
  • Sump - There was a suggestion that the sump was different - I didn't find another part number in EPC and the manual box doesn't have any mountings onto the sump so as I couldn't think of any reason why an auto sump would be different I left well alone
  • Separation of box from engine. I struggled with getting the starter motor off on one engine and splitting the gearboxes off on both engines. This was due to corrosion and it seemed that as the metal around the starter motor hole was so thin it would have been really easy to break the casting
  • As a consequence of this I removed the auto box with the starter still in place.This was a mistake as the torque converter remained on the auto spider flywheel. I should have realised this and as access to the bolts to release the torque converter is through the starter motor hole I do have a minor excuse. I have reinstalled the torque converter into the box and subject to further checking there does not seem to be any damage 

I was a bit worried at first as it took an awful lot of cranking before she fired up. This surprised me as I removed the injector rail complete with no pipe disconnection so there should not have been a delay in fuel coming through. I actually got to the point of testing for a spark with another DI cartridge, and when that proved OK I reconnected with the starter / charger connected and she started up. Perhaps the battery was just a little too low for the ECU to switch on.

The chemical metal /retap of the bolt hole for the stabiliser bracket for the turbo and exhaust worked well.
9-5 Aero Estates, 2002 Cosmic Blue, 2002 Steel Grey, 2003 Graphite Green, 2003 9-5 Glacier Blue 2.0 saloon

sgould

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Re: Smoky Turbo ?
« Reply #13 on: 16 June 2019, 11:56:12 AM »
There's always something that turns out to be more difficult than you expect!
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