Author Topic: Noisy tappets - how bad can it be ?  (Read 3907 times)

carrera

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Re: Noisy tappets - how bad can it be ?
« Reply #15 on: 13 September 2019, 07:06:27 PM »
Well she's all back together and running, cam timing remained correct.

There was a bit more tappet noise on the initial start up, which quietened down within seconds. I left it ticking over with about 1/4 litre ATF to act as a detergent and thought it was initially quieter, however when the engine got warm the tapping was pretty much as before. The potential good news is that the blue smoke seemed to disappear when warm

Inlets 3 and 4 remain noisy, but exhaust 4 seems to have quietened down

More knowledge gained, but no solution yet.

Next steps I think are oil pressure check (waiting for bits to make my adapter) and then a sump drop, hoping to find a partly blocked strainer  :)
9-5 Aero Estates, 2002 Cosmic Blue, 2002 Steel Grey, 2003 Graphite Green, 2004 9-5 Glacier Blue 2.0 saloon

carrera

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Re: Noisy tappets - how bad can it be ?
« Reply #16 on: 21 September 2019, 08:12:32 PM »
I managed to find some time today to do the oil pressure check.

Armed with my own "special tool" I plumbed the oil pressure gauge into the feed pipe for the turbo and started the engine. As I had to adapt my adapter because the gauge wouldn't go in due to the oil drain pipe I modified it with a 90 degree angle piece, lined it up for the gauge to be connected and started the car. There was a small leak, but with 3 joints I decided to live with it.

Results as follows:

Startup, fast idle, 3.5bar
4 minutes, idle, 2.0 bar, water on first mark
10minutes, idle, 1.5bar, water on the 1/4mark - this told me that the oil was probably somewhere around the 70 degree mark, time for a higher speed reading.

I took the car up to 2000 rpm. The gauge showed 4.2 bar before the rubber hose on the gauge separated from the screw fitting, depositing oil liberally into the tray,onto the drive and onto my little helper  :-[  (At least she got the reading for me before going indoors to get cleaned up)

According to WIS oil pressures are to be checked at 105 degrees and idle should be min 0.55 bar, at 2000 rpm 2.5 bar with the pressure relief valve starting to open at 3.8 bar.

Those readings are not conclusive as I was nowhere near the required oil temperature, but I think they look good, or perhaps at least they do not look bad which is making me think the strainer is not sludged up.

While doing the test I could hear a whining sound. Remembering that a whining sound from a cold 9-5 engine is indicative of a blocked strainer I got my stethoscope out.  There was no noise from the sump but the filter was undoubtedly the source of the high pitched sound.

The filter is a "Borg and Beck". Now I thought they made clutches, not oil filters.

Any views on their quality - I might just bang a new one anyway     
   
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Audax

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Re: Noisy tappets - how bad can it be ?
« Reply #17 on: 21 September 2019, 08:28:41 PM »
When the oil filter is sludged up it will open into bypass mode. This means it is no longer a filter as the oil pressure will open the relief valve, they sometimes screech on cold when they do this.

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Re: Noisy tappets - how bad can it be ?
« Reply #18 on: 21 September 2019, 08:29:22 PM »
Erm, which is to say the first thing you do on any 9-5 with suspect problems is swap the oil filter as they cost bugger all....

sgould

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Re: Noisy tappets - how bad can it be ?
« Reply #19 on: 21 September 2019, 10:19:30 PM »
Some filters have a “paper” flap that acts as a non- return valve to stop the oil draining from the filter. I have heard a couple of cars where this flap vibrated in the flow and made a loud hum.
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carrera

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Re: Noisy tappets - how bad can it be ?
« Reply #20 on: 22 September 2019, 12:21:05 AM »
I just checked the history - the filter was only fitted 5000 miles / 7 months ago.

Still, they are cheap, so time to change it again. I knew of a race car once that had low oil pressure - it was eventually traced to a bad batch of filters - top quality ones too.
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carrera

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Re: Noisy tappets - how bad can it be ?
« Reply #21 on: 22 September 2019, 02:40:01 PM »
This morning saw me buying an oil filter, but having slept on it I decided to do the sump drop anyway- I would have needed to top the oil up anyway,so better with a full sump of fresh rather than just do the filter and then another oil change for the sump drop.

The sump is off and here are the photos:

Sump as it came off



View up to the engine- I think that looks a bit dark indicating infrequent /semi synth oil changes ???



Strainer with a lump of something "fluffy" in the top right of the pictures. It took much more force to pull that off than I expected



The strainer clearly needs a bit of a clean, but it doesn't look too bad does it ?  The cross pipe is also clean enough on the internals. That was very easy to pull off.

So, the big question is can I reassemble using the existing O-rings. I know I shouldn't, but I'm doing this on the drive so am more concerned about dust and debris being blown up onto the exposed crank and internals.

Coming back to the noisy tappets, I think I have eliminated oil pressure and a blocked strainer. That leaves the tappets themselves (do they fail), wear on the tappet bores, or perhaps the seal on the crosspipe was poor meaning that although there is good pressure on the turbo side of the pump, the pressure / flow to the piston jets and tappets is poor ?

That's assuming my reading of this diagram is correct?

Any thoughts or comments ?

Update : I decided to get the bits so the cleaned sump has been replaced to protect the engine. An awful lot of the staining just came off when wiping with a cloth which I was surprised about.
« Last Edit: 22 September 2019, 04:57:44 PM by carrera »
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carrera

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Re: Noisy tappets - how bad can it be ?
« Reply #22 on: 23 September 2019, 09:34:58 PM »
Tonight I moved beyond cloth cleaning to more professional methods.

After leaving in in the parts cleaner for 15 minutes I gave it a treatment of TFR and alloy wheel cleaner, aided by a soft nailbrush.The sludge is actually quite hard and gritty, rather than sticky isn't it. Anyway, I'm quite happy with this

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sgould

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Re: Noisy tappets - how bad can it be ?
« Reply #23 on: 23 September 2019, 09:40:02 PM »
Looks good now. :)
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carrera

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Re: Noisy tappets - how bad can it be ?
« Reply #24 on: 23 September 2019, 10:08:57 PM »
Yeah, just waiting for the bits from Bill to arrive tomorrow and time to reassemble

I'm going to reassemble and have another listen, but as the oil pressure seemed to be good and the strainer did not look so bad I suspect it will remain noisy and I will have to take the cams off again for a more thorough inspection.

I think I also need to look down the cam bolt oil feed holes for 3 and 4 intake to make sure they are not blocked and starving the tappets. I should have thought of that last time  ::)
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carrera

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Re: Noisy tappets - how bad can it be ?
« Reply #25 on: 23 September 2019, 10:32:27 PM »
Unless it was the oil filter......

Borg & Beck 4010

The application list I have seen says these are for Ford Focus / Fiesta engines. Physically the same size,but what internal differences ???

Update, according to Mann specs,there's a mm difference on two dimensions and the Saab one goes intobypass mode with a pressure difference of 0.8 bar. It's 1.0bar for Ford.
« Last Edit: 23 September 2019, 10:58:21 PM by carrera »
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carrera

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Re: Noisy tappets - how bad can it be ?
« Reply #26 on: 27 September 2019, 12:15:29 PM »
I finished putting the sump back on this morning.

There is no celebration. The car started and the tappet noise remains.It maybe sounds a little quieter, but it is essentially the same.

What is different is that there is now a constant stream of blue smoke from the exhaust. Perhaps the flow is increased and the valve stem oil seals now have a bigger pool to hold back........or my new oil 5W 40 synthetic is getting past the turbo seals better and showing more

I could look to replace the tappets.........but wouldn't that still leave the burning oil

I do have an air compressor and could look at doing the valve stem oil seals in situ.......... but I believe you need a special tool for the seals and before that special spring compressor

Any thoughts, or is it Queen of Hearts time, and off with her head  :(
« Last Edit: 27 September 2019, 12:20:59 PM by carrera »
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sgould

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Re: Noisy tappets - how bad can it be ?
« Reply #27 on: 27 September 2019, 12:32:39 PM »
I would remove the inlet cobra and/or the exhaust and see if there's play in the turbo shaft.  There shouldn't be any.  Less bolts than a head!
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carrera

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Re: Noisy tappets - how bad can it be ?
« Reply #28 on: 27 September 2019, 07:19:34 PM »
Well that was easier said than done.

It appears that the 2006 on Aeros have a "King Cobra", I eventually got the pipe out by slackening off the turbo to manifold nuts (didn't do much) and then releasing the top wastegate fixing bolt and forcing it to rotate a little as the lower fixing bolt was not accessible.

In the process of doing that I took the turbo heat shield off at which point I discovered that both exhaust manifold studs were broken. I think they are proud of the head which may give me half a chance of getting them out, but that's for later  :(

The turbo itself ?

There was a little axial radial play, difficult to detect at first, but definitely there. There was fresh oil visible around the turbo inlet and on a few of the turbine blades.  From a quick look around it seems that the DE cars have different turbos too ?

.........and I still have the noisy tappets
« Last Edit: 28 September 2019, 02:14:24 PM by carrera »
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sgould

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Re: Noisy tappets - how bad can it be ?
« Reply #29 on: 27 September 2019, 07:25:30 PM »
Yes, the turbo inlet flange is modified to fit the cobra.  Otherwise it's the same.  The turbo inlet will get oily.  The crankcase breathing pipe will deliver oil mist into the cobra.
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