Tire pressures

[luckyegg]

The bit where you stated you had *categorically* been told by both these companies that there was *no* *adjustment* on the rear camber, it's quite blatantly incorrect and why I have an issue with it. Please don't spread incorrect information about as it isn't helpful. Yes you do need shims, yes they are not easy to fit but in no way does this amount to no adjustment on the rear camber...

You've have just confirmed my point the is no adjusment, (without fitting the shims) so surely that means by definition the is no adjustment as standard.

And is it not better for everyone to understand this rather than being told that they have had it adjusted by some garage when in truth it total rubbish,

I do see your point but surley you can understand what i am saying

ITs like me saying i have a jacket and it would fit anyone, but ill have to take it to the tailors before it will,

My indie and the motor sport place stated the is no adjustment, unless you have shims fitted.so they are not wrong  and surley neither am I

[Audax]

Right, so you can't adjust it unless you adjust it using parts supplied by Saab and using their workshop manual... Given I have adjusted them for customers before using these parts and the method supplied by Saab it makes your original argument that there is "no adjustment" absurd. You need to look up the meaning of the word "categorically" as it means "without exception" and I think that being able to adjust something albeit with extra parts means it is isn't without exception. I note that you changed from "no adjustment" to "no adjustment without using shims" which is entirely my point and the correct answer.

Telling the original poster that his garage couldn't have had it adjusted is silly, how do you know what the garage did to his car, how do you know they didn't add or remove shims on the rear suspension?

[Geoff1951]

Audax, I'm with you on this one!

[phoenix]

The manual says there is a procedure, using shims.

There is adjustment. I rang a specialist wheel alignment place to ask could they do a 4W allignment including rear camber if necessary, and after telling him my car, he said that they could do it as long as they had suitable shims. The fact that the monkey on the day knew didly squat is besides the point. The main man knew that shimming was an accepted adjustment procedure.

[idlerider]

Audax, I'm with you on this one!

Seconded.....(FWIW)

[luckyegg]

Right, so you can't adjust it unless you adjust it using parts supplied by Saab and using their workshop manual... Given I have adjusted them for customers before using these parts and the method supplied by Saab it makes your original argument that there is "no adjustment" absurd. You need to look up the meaning of the word "categorically" as it means "without exception" and I think that being able to adjust something albeit with extra parts means it is isn't without exception. I note that you changed from "no adjustment" to "no adjustment without using shims" which is entirely my point and the correct answer.

Telling the original poster that his garage couldn't have had it adjusted is silly, how do you know what the garage did to his car, how do you know they didn't add or remove shims on the rear suspension?

Ok What you say is completely fair!

BUt how can you say its adjustable when you have to add a part to do this,
based on that then its not adjustable as standard which was my point.

i mean you could go down the route of saying the whole suspension is fully adjustable including ride hight rebound and all the rest, but you have to fit fully adjustable setup.
We could go on and on with this but

I'll accept i'm wrong saying they carn't have adjusted the rear camber
, i guess what i should of said is it is very unlikely they have done any adjustment on the rear camber as it would cost a dam site more to fit the shims than £50, and if he had them in place already surley the only way to adjust futher would be to add more shims. (please tell me if im wrong).

this site is called saab tech talk, now surely if you go round telling people that rear camber is adjustable with shims, then for the untechnically minded people who use the site, who don't understand they are an extra part that has to be fitted, may think that it will be done as standard when the alingment is done.

so my first statment though worded badly was still correct.
and surley are little conflab has given people information which maybe they wouldn't of got otherwise.

[sgould]

I take a slightly different view of the "adjustability" question.

I would suggest that the shims are fitted in the factory to make up for (in)tolerances in the body build.  There shouldn't be anything to go out of alignment unless the body is damaged.  So the shims should not need changing if the car was built straight!

What I would further suggest is that if anything on the wheel geometry is out of specification it will be because the rubber bushes have worn and need replacement.


Next question is: Does replacing a rubber bush count as an adjustment or a repair!

[luckyegg]

Not sure they are fitted as standard But these 2 bits of info should explain

Rear Camber Shims  - available from your dealer (in 0.3mm) or GenuineSaab (in 0.3mm and 0.6mm)
These are used to reduce the amount of negative camber at the rear wheel. Some owners have tried to set the camber close to 0°. These are designed to correct vehicles involved in accidents or lowered below stock. There is no reason to ever need a shim on a stock car. Yes, shims will reduce the rear tire wear so you can use the car without endlessly changing tires, but shims will not eliminate the sag and bottoming out which contributes to poor handling as well as damper, spring, and subframe failure. According to at least one owner (sagging rear.) subframe failure or whatever else is failing continues with the use of shims and eventually will not be correctable without exceeding the maximum number of allowable shims (a number which was already increased by Saab at least once to deal with the suspension issues).

Which i think leads on to this statment from saab/gm US
The Saab 9-5 rear suspension design is such that ride height and camber are related as outlined in the WIS tables. The Saab 9-5 seems to suffer from a design defect whereby the vehicle does not maintain ride height under normal loads (loads up to its stated GWVR) and thereby does not maintain acceptable camber. This design defect is exhibited in varying symptoms including tire wear and failure, alignment problems, rear wheel well trim damage, premature damper and spring failures, bushing failures, etc. The exact suspension defect is not clear. The defect can also result in a deformed rear subframe/axle. The exact method of the deformation is not clear.

I take a slightly different view of the "adjustability" question.

I would suggest that the shims are fitted in the factory to make up for (in)tolerances in the body build.  There shouldn't be anything to go out of alignment unless the body is damaged.  So the shims should not need changing if the car was built straight!

What I would further suggest is that if anything on the wheel geometry is out of specification it will be because the rubber bushes have worn and need replacement.


Next question is: Does replacing a rubber bush count as an adjustment or a repair!

your right about bushes but i have had all but the rear subframe done and still have the camber issue. guess i should do the subframe ones.

and in answer to your question Who the **** no's. both maybe

[Audax]

this site is called saab tech talk, now surely if you go round telling people that rear camber is adjustable with shims, then for the untechnically minded people who use the site, who don't understand they are an extra part that has to be fitted, may think that it will be done as standard when the alingment is done.

Every week at work I deal with untechnically minded customers who have searched for problems on the internet and found bad advice from Saab forums, I'd much rather them know that the camber *is* adjustable and tell them the price would be higher because of needing to fit shims rather than have them not call because they read a post stating that it can't be done. That's why I had an issue with you saying that the rear camber was *not* adjustable and that this had been categorically stated, all I was stating was a correction to this, the further details are just that, details. My entire point was that I was aiming for people who are not technical who may be reading this forum in the future.

[rhodgie]

My two pence worth......  seems like a language issue.....  the camber is not really adjustable in the same way you can adjust the toe-in or the height of you headlights or tyre pressures...... but it can be "altered" in the same way you can alter the amout of power the engine produces..... by time consuming and expensive modification.....

I would expect anything "adjustable" to be within the reach of joe bloggs in the driveway....  altering camber doesn't sound like it is....   but that's only my 2p worth.

As for original point about tyre pressures, I use 16" Avon XL's at the highest pressures in the manual, ie for high speeds and heavy loads so approx 42 front and 39 rear (I think?)   

[ScarbSaab]

I would expect anything "adjustable" to be within the reach of joe bloggs in the driveway....  altering camber doesn't sound like it is....   but that's only my 2p worth.

I know what you're saying but I disagree. To my mind, 'no adjustment' means tough, live with it. 'Adjustable with shims' implies you need bits to do it, and if you didn't know what it means you'd look it up.

Although in theory the toe-in is adjustable by someone on their driveway, anyone without the proper alignment kit should not be touching it, so it's no more adjustable by joe bloggs than the camber. For the majority of people (me included for a lot of things), 'adjustable' means taking it to a garage even for things like headlights (which I will do myself).

Was running 38psi all round on the 16". Vredestein 17" at 42psi - transformed the handling of the Aero.

[Geoff1951]

My two pence worth......... 

If you drill a hole in a 2p coin can it be used as a shim?

[rhodgie]

My two pence worth......... 

If you drill a hole in a 2p coin can it be used as a shim?

haha  :-) 

[Richard_C]

That would be defacing a coin of the realm - still a crime I belive, but no longer High Treason punishable by hanging as it once was.

So, the nice policeman who stops you to check your car over spots a drilled out 2p piece: "You're nicked son, defacing a coin of the realm."  Unlikley I suppose.

[sgould]

Defacing coins is OK now. Law changed in 1981!

I think that that was the year that coins became worthless; the metal changed from copper/tin/silver etc. to steel with a coloured coating.