Today I had a call from the garage doing the work on my car to say that all four Nokian zLine tyres on my car had worn through to the canvas on the inside edge! :o
I thought it unlikely as I had removed them all when doing the shock absorber change four weeks ago and they were fine then. I say that because I had all the wheels off the car and I had carefully inspected them for small stones and so I had slowly inspected the outside. As it was the weekend before the Saab National I also washed the wheels and dried them. I cannot believe that I missed any damage like this.
So, if all four tyres were "OK" four weeks ago and less than 500 miles later they were destroyed, what is going on?
The rear springs and shock absorbers were changed a month ago before the Saab National.
The damage was found by the garage doing the front struts and springs today.
All four have lost the inside edge. The tyres are assymetric and marked "Inside" & "Outside"
All four have been properly inflated all the time. The Tyrepal monitor will bleep if the pressure drops.
The tread on all four is legal - only just on the front and with 4mm on the rear.
The front pair and rear pair were bought at different times about 8 months apart.
The damage to all four is similar
(http://i1265.photobucket.com/albums/jj503/sjgould2002/9-5%20Nokian%20zLine/IMG_0726_zps5f1zru7u.jpg) (http://s1265.photobucket.com/user/sjgould2002/media/9-5%20Nokian%20zLine/IMG_0726_zps5f1zru7u.jpg.html)
(http://i1265.photobucket.com/albums/jj503/sjgould2002/9-5%20Nokian%20zLine/IMG_0728_zpsjujl14co.jpg) (http://s1265.photobucket.com/user/sjgould2002/media/9-5%20Nokian%20zLine/IMG_0728_zpsjujl14co.jpg.html)
(http://i1265.photobucket.com/albums/jj503/sjgould2002/9-5%20Nokian%20zLine/IMG_0727_zpslcchb9g4.jpg) (http://s1265.photobucket.com/user/sjgould2002/media/9-5%20Nokian%20zLine/IMG_0727_zpslcchb9g4.jpg.html)
Tomorrow will involve a close check of all sorts of things by me, but I'm not sure where to start looking, unless it's a manufacturing fault. But on two different batches?
Blimey, Will. Good luck with getting to the bottom of this.
As the police would say, only asking as a process of elimination - do you know the garage doing the current work?
Yes. I'm happy with the garage. It's a guy that attends the local meets. Saab specialist.
I did briefly wonder when they phoned that they "had a set ready to show the customer" but how many people have a set of four fairly obscure Nokian zLines in 225/40 18 92Y? And with them worn the right amount.
This is a bit of a guess, but I'm wondering if you've driven through something that has attacked the tyre rubber. I would imagine anything you came in contact with on the road would have effectively been wiped off the main body of the tyre after a few miles apart from on this edge, where it would have had prolonged contact and maybe severely softened the rubber. If the edge has then come into contact with road, when for example severe cornering, the softened rubber would have been easily worn away.
I just can't see any other reason why you should get wear on this particular part of the tyre and not on the main part, especially when you take good care of your vehicle and look after your tyres.
I don't know if these tyres are made of an unusual set of rubber compounds, such as more natural rubber than butadiene based rubber, but most rubbers will be attacked by solvents eventually with prolonged contact. Have you been anywhere where there has been a serious petrol or diesel spill, or methanol? (This is used in making bio-diesel and is notorious for attacking rubber compounds.)
If you do find another cause, I'd love to know because I've just not seen anything like this before.
I guess the worse bit is the extra bill for four new tyres! I put a new set on last August, have done 20K in a year and now need to put on another set! The perils of getting to work in a comfortable bat out of hell!
All the best, Peter.
I can't remember being near any thing bad. The only "off-road" experience I have had is three laps of Cadwell Park during the Saab national slow speed parade laps.
20-25,000 miles a year was nothing, but now I struggle to get to 12,000 a year and that includes a couple of driving holidays in Europe.
The cost is not too bad, as I needed to change the tyres soon. It's just sudden and unexpected.
Hmm.... interesting. I had my last two winter tyres go like that, although not as quickly.
It suggests either extreme negative camber of perhaps they are catching on something.
The swapping of shocks etc will probably have changed the alignment marginally, but I wouldn't have expected it to do that.
When was the alignment last done and by who?
It's either going to be alignment/suspension and that it is set so badly it has caused this on all tyres which either suggests their equipment is bent/broken or the person doing it was using the wrong specs, and given my experience with getting people to do alignment.... wouldn't surprise me.
The other possibility would be tyre design or defective tyres.
As it's all 4 tyres the rears shouldn't be catching on anything unless the right height is so wrong with those shocks and 18" wheels that you have a serious problem?
Saab can only offer a garage in their group - Watford Audi. Estimated at £300 for a check and adjust!! :o :o
Anyone able to recommend a good place for a four wheel alignment near me?
Watford/S. Herts/SE Bucks/N. London...
Quote from: sgould on 29 July 2015, 05:46:58 PM
Watford/S. Herts/SE Bucks/N. London...
I asked a similar question recently (although a bit further North) the other week and got no replies but I did find http://www.jpswheelalignmentcentre.co.uk/ (http://www.jpswheelalignmentcentre.co.uk/) in Milton Keynes which is obviously a bit out the way for you but might be worth investigation. No idea if they are any good though.
Hi,
Looks like delamination at tread and side wall interface , wouldn't think you had any alignment issue. Nokian don't have the best reputation for construction quality but that would be bad luck. What are date of manufacture for them? Interesting to see if they from same batch
Steve
Too late to check. I didn't bring them home with me, but they were bought almost a year apart, if I remember correctly. bought through MyTyres.
Quote from: stevetreacy on 29 July 2015, 07:29:22 PM
Nokian don't have the best reputation for construction quality but that would be bad luck.
Do you have a source for that? As far as I am aware they are one of the highest regarded manufacturers out there.
I had EXACTLY the same thing on both front tyres at end of the winter - Avon ice touring. I check them regularly and were down to just below 3mm and looked even across tread. First I knew was a blow out as through to canvas right inside. Got tracking checked and all straight! No idea what caused it. I suspected tyre manufacture problem, but oddly identical to your problem! Funnily enough I'm now running nokians...
Quote from: sgould on 29 July 2015, 05:46:58 PMAnyone able to recommend a good place for a four wheel alignment near me?
Watford/S. Herts/SE Bucks/N. London...
May be worth asking Saabtech for their advice Will? Always friendly and happy to help.
I was thinking along those lines. I may pop over next week.
I beginning to think the local ex-dealer is getting overstretched. The big car park next to their site which is shared with the Seat new cars has closed due to contamination and they may not get it back. The group company seem to have taken over the area. They came into the area with an Audi dealership; then opened Seat on the old Saab site, but kept the Saab servicing. Yesterday I drove past the BMW dealer and their name was on that, and today I found out that they have bought the Jaguar dealership along the road.
This lot in Chesham have a generally good reputation:
http://www.wheels-inmotion.co.uk/wheels-alignment.php
I was looking at them before, but I thought that you hadn't found them that good. Although in the last couple of weeks I had it confirmed that the owner, Tony Bones, used to work at Stapletons in Watford, and he did a really good job on our old Renault Espace. But that was back in the last century!
I had a less than wholly satisfactory experience with one particular operator in terms of his knowledge of what could or couldn't be done, but everyone else I've known who's been there speaks highly of them and there's no doubting the quality of their kit.
That's fine. I'll give them a go. :)
Today I had the 4 wheel laser alignment at Wheels in Motion in Chesham.
It went well. The guy checked all the details, found the computer didn't have the figures for 18 in wheels. I showed him the Hirsch e-mail which says use the 17 inch sport settings, he checked his computer agains my WIS print-out and away he went.
The toe was a bit out at the front, as was the rear. This was adjusted. He knew which bolts to slacken off for adjusting the rear toe-in too.
In theory the rear camber needed adjusting. It was over the limit, but only just. It should probably have one shim inserted. But it's hardly enough to bother. I may do the insert before the next fully loaded holiday four-up next Spring.
The place was clean and tidy and the machine operator knew what he was doing and then went through everything he had done and discussed the results with me.
I can feel that the steering is a bit "firmer" now. And the steering wheel is centred!! :)
Quote from: sgould on 05 August 2015, 08:41:20 PM
I can feel that the steering is a bit "firmer" now. And the steering wheel is centred!! :)
Sounds good, how much did it cost?
£72.50 for a half hour of work.
Saab garage were going to sublet the job to their Audi subsidiary, I got a quote of £300 (+VAT) for a full 4 wheel alignment which is what they would charge for the work on the "nearest equivalent car" an Audi 2.7 litres. They were going to come back with a better offer, but never did.
Good price I'd say for that work, sounds like the Audi dealer didn't want the job though!
Around the £70 mark is what my local garage/tyre place, http://xpressgarage.co.uk/ (http://xpressgarage.co.uk/) , charge for their 4 wheel alignment. One of the guys doing the work is ex-Saab specialist garage mech.
Nice thing is they have a repeater screen in their front office / waiting room, they talk you through a "before" printout before agreeing/doing the actual alignment work. They're a bit far away for any of you guys but it's useful info for anyone else around where I am in Falmouth.
Will, do you think the alignment was out enough to have wrecked those tyres?
Looking at the bare figures, I would have said not. But the adjustment has certainly given the steering more feel. So maybe. I won't be home until late tonight. I could post the figures and see whàt you all think.
What worries me is that the tread of all the tyres looks to be evenly worn across the width from side to side with no feathering of the tread blocks, yet the inside sidewall has disappeared as if the tyre was way out of alignment and also under inflated.
I have been following this thread with interest as I am considering fitting Nokian Line tyres when the rubbish Falken Ziex 914 's need replacing. The wear shown on Will's car's tyres does not appear to be on a part of the tread that is in contact with the road as it is between the ribs.
Google found me some interesting sites on how they make a tyre and being of a cynical nature I can't help wondering that as with so many products nowadays that are made in the far flung corners of the world that quality control does not feature large in their working practice. It might be worth having a chat with the Nokian importers, Nordic Tyres in Lockerbie to see if they have had reports of similar problems.
They had "Made in Finland" written on them...
Quote from: collywobble on 07 August 2015, 02:48:46 PM
I am considering fitting Nokian Line tyres when the rubbish Falken Ziex 914 's need replacing.
Given my experience with the Ziex 914 you won't be waiting too long, they are really not lasting very well (when I compare them to the Nokian winter tyres I have used in summer before that have done 3x the distance they still have more tread!)
The 914's are very noisy and the fronts have developed scalloping on the outside edges which I think was the cause of the intermittent vibration that I have posted about previously.
I have 914's on the back of my Astra G estate with 912's still on the front and they are not noisy at all. Possibly it's because the Saab has XL rated tyres and the stiffer sidewall transmits more noise.
I still favour the Nokin Line for the Saab as they get very good reviews for other makes (especially on an Audi A4) on tyre forums.
Quote from: collywobble on 08 August 2015, 09:24:08 AM
The 914's are very noisy and the fronts have developed scalloping on the outside edges which I think was the cause of the intermittent vibration that I have posted about previously.
You know what, similar thing here. I keep thinking *something* is wrong with the suspension/steering as there's a vibration at speed, it was fine in winter until the summer tyres got put on and immediately wasn't as good however I did then have some work done with new bushes and steering parts and then tracking done and it has got worse, but I am putting it down to the tyres getting worse.
It is now a couple of years since I had the tracking checked and it would be sensible to do it before fitting new tyres. Last time I had them done at Protyre in Exeter who did a very good job and the difference was immediately noticeable. As Exeter is a 100+ mile round trip a local garage has recently invested in a 4-wheel tracking jig than uses cameras instead of lasers. They have told me that it is better than laser tracking - has anybody got any experience with what I assume is the latest development in wheel alingment?
Also any other suggestions for a decent medium price tyre for my 9-5 estate? Needs to be XL rated and bear in mind my car is a 2.2 TiD and not a 2.3 AERO!!!!!!!
Best tyres I've had on the same car were Goodyear assymetrics. I also recently had uni royal rainsport3 which I really liked and were at a great price on lovetyres.
I had the same issue earlier this year with a nearside front which deteriorated rapidly. My tyre was a Kleber Quadraxer.. Not consistent all the way round, I suspected speed bumps were eating away at the rubber.
Rear tyres now replaced with Nokian Line 215/55/16" 93V XL. The wear on the Falken Ziex 914's which came off the front was very similar to the scalloping that is common on the rears and the intermittent vibration was obviously as a result a combination of this and a rough road surface.
All is quiet now with no vibration in evidence.
I would be interested to know too as my 9-5 Aero Hot Estate had the same thing on both rear tyres. These were Goodyears about a year old.
Now fitted some new Michelin CrossClimates all round
Thanks
steve
Would be very interested to hear your experiences of the michelins as I'm thinking about those next.
It seems that the Cross Climate tyres are becoming available from other manufacturers. I came across these last week and will have a serious think when the time comes to change.
http://www.nokiantyres.com/all-weather-tyres/nokian-weatherproof/
Was thinking about those too as I use the WR A3 tyre year round now. Michelin gets a w rating though..
We've had the Cross Climates on my wifes Golf since the tyre came out and I must admit they really are superb in the wet and dry come to think of it. The only downside, if you could cause it a downside is that they do tend to pick up stones - especially they horrible chippings they put on the road. Twice I have had to have a piece removed from one of her front calipers which never happened with the normal primacy's but bang for bucks they are brill. Test obviously will be when it gets really cold and we get a sprinkle of that white stuff or a hard frost.
Hi Sgould, is the car an estate.
This happened to me and turned out to be a combination of trailing arm bushes and camber at +3 on both rear wheels, ie folding in. Once I sorted the camber she was fine.
Strangely, she would eat a different corner each time, front or rear.
Park on a level surface, put a small level on the wheel rim, measure the gap to the vertigal, each 1 mm is approximately equal to 1 degree, ( cos theta is approximately equal to 0 for small angles ). I installed 2mm of shims on the top inner hub to bring back to approximately 1 deg.
Hope this helps, I got through 12 tyres in a year trying to get to the bottom of it.
Since the problem I've had new suspension and new tyres and a four wheel alignment. Keeping an eye on tyres. They seem OK at the moment. Rear suspension was re-bushed last year.