Author Topic: 1995 CSE Clutch Nightmare!  (Read 21084 times)

millster

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1995 CSE Clutch Nightmare!
« on: 22 January 2012, 04:11:39 AM »
So I've been driving myself positively crackers the past little bit here trying to find a clutch for my 9K.
Seems the 1995 CSE is the odd man out when it comes to clutches.  The 1994 CSE uses the same clutch as the earlier Turbos as do the LPT and NA models.
I had previously ordered a clutch that said it fit the CSE only to find out (thankfully before they shipped the part) that it only fit the V6.  What's the difference?  14 splines, 1 inch hub... 9 inch outer diameter.  The CSE Turbo for 1995 is a 9.5 inch diameter plate.  Same specs otherwise.  So just a note to those out there who may face the same plight as me.  It's not easy to find a clutch kit for the '95 CSE in the US. 

Good news is that I've got a slave kit and clutch kit all on their way.  Hopefully it won't cost much to have the flywheel resurfaced and I'll be able to get the thing in soon.  Having my car back to its full performance will be VERY nice!  I'll finally be able to do an adaptation run and possibly get my boost pressures up where they belong. 

I do need to locate a new line to go between the master and the slave, though.  I am sure this is going to need to be replaced.  Does anyone still make a braided line or am I stuck with OEM rubber?

phoenix

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Re: 1995 CSE Clutch Nightmare!
« Reply #1 on: 23 January 2012, 08:13:50 AM »
Not sure on sizes but... one of the key changes was the move from long block to short block 4 cyl engines for MY94 onwards. The number of splines on the shaft changed then, so you have to get the correct friction plate. However the cover (pressure) plates are interchangeable between the different blocks.

Speedparts do a braided clutch hose:

http://shop.speedparts.se/en/prod/9000-85-98/transmission/clutch-hose/?XBLG13102=24f12f3b000d6396ffecd4f97c237c00

But you could get your own made up- they are standard fittings.

millster

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Re: 1995 CSE Clutch Nightmare!
« Reply #2 on: 23 January 2012, 01:19:16 PM »
Yeah, I noticed they went from 17 to 14 spline.  But there's also the difference in diameter between what seems to fit LPT/V6 cars and what fits the FPT.  Not everyone seems to agree on which is which or if there's even a difference, but hearing that the pressure plate is the same all around is comforting.  That's the part I as truly concerned about.  The fact that there were so many different kits and plates out there made me concerned that there was a difference in that bit. The disk, so long as it has the right number of splines on the right hub diameter should be fine.  I'd think the extra half-inch is correct given the extra power of the FPT engine.  A little extra gripping surface and less chatter on takeup, I'm sure. I can tell you for sure, that's one thing I won't miss.  First car I've had that the clutch has truly gone bad on me.  I've had some start to slip in upper gears, but never one that has outright failed.  It's still mobile, but its days are numbered and I'm glad everything came together for me to get it repaired before it gave up.

phoenix

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Re: 1995 CSE Clutch Nightmare!
« Reply #3 on: 23 January 2012, 01:44:31 PM »
hearing that the pressure plate is the same all around is comforting. 

Ah, perhaps I should be more circumspect- I only know the pressure plate is the same for models of the same output i.e. a FPT/Aero 1993 and FPT/Aero 1994 will be the same.

I've had a check on Sach's site and it would appear that all 2.3 turbos have a 240mm (9.5") clutch, as does the 3.0. 2.0's normally have a 215mm (8.5") but some of the later 2.0s may use the larger one too. I would expect the pressure plate to match the size of the friction plate i.e. they won't use an oversize one.

http://webcat-services.zf.com/index.asp?SPR=4
« Last Edit: 23 January 2012, 01:47:56 PM by phoenix »

alang

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Re: 1995 CSE Clutch Nightmare!
« Reply #4 on: 23 January 2012, 08:42:40 PM »
Agree with Phoenix.  When I moved the 2.0LPT up to Hirsch stage 1 I had a new clutch fitted.  The 2.0 clutch should take the power/torque of the Stage 1 but started flaring (slipping momentarily when the throttle was hit at mid range revs in any gear) after about 10 months.   
The local indie who did the clutch was convinced that it should be OK and changed the clutch (Saab unit, 2 year warranty).  However, he could find no fault with it and the new one did the same 10 months later.  I was told the torque must just be too much for it and the next move would be to fit a larger 2.3 clutch and flywheel.  (In the end I took the stage 1 ECU off and gave it to my son, he can have it back when he is a bit older and can deal with the clutch issues).
If you are going to upgrade fit the 2.3 clutch.

millster

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Re: 1995 CSE Clutch Nightmare!
« Reply #5 on: 24 January 2012, 01:46:40 AM »
OK.  Well, I think you guys have me confident I'm not going to have issues.  So long as the plate bolts to the block and accommodates the friction disc, I'm happy. 
Still confused as to how the 3.0 differs from my 2.3L CSE.  It said it was a 9" disc.  The LUK I bought is a 9.5" confusing, but whatever.  If it fits and doesn't slip like my current unit is I'm one happy guy. 

millster

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Re: 1995 CSE Clutch Nightmare!
« Reply #6 on: 27 January 2012, 04:34:20 AM »
Well, she's here.  Along with a SaabParts AB slave.  I'm still nervous that somehow it's going to be the wrong one and not fit, but here's hoping.  It's one heavy bugger, to be sure. 
I'm curious what everyone's take on replacing the hydraulic lines is, though?  Do it?  Don't waste my time?  So far as I know nothing, including the 220,000 mile slave cylinder is leaking (no loss of fluid) so I assume the lines are all good.

phoenix

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Re: 1995 CSE Clutch Nightmare!
« Reply #7 on: 28 January 2012, 01:06:15 PM »
Well, at that mileage I might be tempted to do it but if you're on a budget then leave it- if it fails it's no more than an inconvenience, there's not likely to be anything else suffers as a result.

millster

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Re: 1995 CSE Clutch Nightmare!
« Reply #8 on: 28 January 2012, 03:27:48 PM »
Ahh, OK.  So it's replaceable without dropping the box out again?
The good news is, the guys that bundled my clutch up and sent it to me were supposed to be sending a LUK. They sent a Sachs in a LUK box, instead.  No complaints here.  More expensive clutch for a lower price?

alang

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Re: 1995 CSE Clutch Nightmare!
« Reply #9 on: 28 January 2012, 06:16:55 PM »
The  box needs to come out for the clutch and slave cylinder but the hydraulic line section which fails is normally the flexible part in the pipe between the master cylinder and slave.  It is replaceable without taking the box out.   Bleeding can be fun, needs a pressure bleeder and sometimes to raise the front of the car to get all the air out.   The indie I used (before going auto) also recommended replacing the rear oil seal while the box was out as it was not too expensive.

millster

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Re: 1995 CSE Clutch Nightmare!
« Reply #10 on: 24 March 2012, 04:06:11 AM »
Tomorrow begins the fun.  I have the necessary bits in hand and the box is coming out tomorrow.  Here's hoping I've not done any damage by running it as long as I have.  It will be very nice to have a non-slipping clutch once again!

millster

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Re: 1995 CSE Clutch Nightmare!
« Reply #11 on: 26 March 2012, 04:07:15 AM »
Aye, well good news and bad.  As could be anticipated with a car with 220,000 miles, things did not come apart easily.  It took most of Saturday just to remove the obstructions and the sub frame.  Late in the evening, we decided to hold off until Sunday to attempt the trans drop. Sadly, that didn't go well either.  The shift linkage didn't want to split, the trans didn't want to split from the engine, it was a disaster.  Halfway through the day, we had the trans out and had the new clutch in place.

The old clutch was a total disaster.  The pressure plate looked OK from the outside but once I pulled it off, things started to look different.  The pressure plate was gouged by the friction disc rivets, the friction disc was frayed at the outer edges and the whole disc was brittle.  The take-up springs on the disc were totally knackered.  The edges had been rubbing the inner edge of the pressure plate, one had been visibly overheated and was collapsed.  All four were hanging loose in their brackets and rattling.  The release bearing sounded like it had been filled with sand and spun at 20,000 RPM.  I was in grave danger of a catastrophic failure in a very short amount of time.  Thankfully the flywheel was still in good nick and required very minor surface repair. 

The slave cylinder was a wreck as well.  It hadn't leaked but either due to heat from the thrashed bearing or the shagged disc, the boot was torn, brittle and collapsed.  The screws affixing it to the trans housing were completely seized and in trying to remove them with a torx driver, they immediately stripped.  The only way to get them out was to drill them hollow, cold chisel the heads off and twist out the remains.  One broke off in the housing and had to be totally drilled out and the hole re-tapped to 7mm.

Following the slave replacement that neared a partial rebuild of the trans, we had little time left to lift the trans back into the car.  The disaster continued.  My trolley jack turned out to be leaking so we were left with one trolley jack and a bottle jack.  While it provided plenty of lift, it provided nothing in the way of mobility.  Try as we might, all we succeeded in was having the trans drop off one jack or the other three times.  Finally, I decided to attempt the use of a ratchet strap around the beam supporting the engine.  Things were working great until the ratchet strap decided it couldn't life any more.  We employed the services of the bottle jack to provide additional lift to the strap. The trans was nearly in place.  I crawled under the car to attempt to wrestle the intermediate shaft onto its splines and my Pop maneuvered the trans.  Everything was going great and we were SO close to having both shafts stabbed in when suddenly the bottle jack let go.  Thankfully we've both worked on drilling rigs and know that you always stay out from under large pieces of shabbily supported metal and I was clear of the trans as it dropped about 10 inches onto the trolley jack.  At this point, we gave up for the evening. 

Tomorrow begins a new day and a new attempt.  I'm going to try the nylon ratchet strap around the trans again but use a ratcheting winch to lift the trans by the strap.  I wish I could justify an engine lift or afford a good trans jack, but I think this will work.  We were so close with just the ratchet strap and if we'd had more lift, we'd have been golden. 

In any case, it's been taxing but I'm still glad I decided to do it myself.  Despite having MS which makes such work extra challenging, In the end the satisfaction will be worth every moment and all the pain.

Paul @ Kippen

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Re: 1995 CSE Clutch Nightmare!
« Reply #12 on: 26 March 2012, 09:21:46 AM »
Millster,

I have swapped a few gearboxes in 9000s over the years and never found that jacking it up was a good way of getting it back in place.  It really is much easier to lift from above.  What I generally do is to get a decent strop around the box, get up on top of the engine, one foot on the bonnet slam panel, the other on the strut top.

Wearing a pair of leather rigger gloves, just lift it up.  Have your worthy assistance ( in my case Mrs P @ K ) locate the box on a pair of long studs fitted to the top two bolts holes in the block.  At least now you can rest before wriggling the box along the studs ( just long bolts of the correct diameter and thread with the heads cut off ).  There are two parts to get to engage, the clutch spline and the differential to intermediate drive shaft.

Once in place do up a couple of bolts and remove the temporary studs.  The rest is just reassembly.

Paul @ Kippen.

millster

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Re: 1995 CSE Clutch Nightmare!
« Reply #13 on: 27 March 2012, 03:41:02 AM »
Much thanks, P@K (as usual)!

The situation as it stands now:
I got the intermediate shaft off of the transmission (just took a solid tug) and got it slipped onto the passenger side axle where it should have stayed to begin with. 

As for the box itself, I have three ratchet straps holding it up now.  I got some meatier ones capable of actually lifting the box and put them over the beam supporting the engine.  We VERY nearly had it stabbed at one point this evening.  Honestly I think if I'd been underneath steering it it would have gone in.  For some reason we keep ending up high and to the left (look face-on at the clutch) of the hole in the friction disk.  I'm not sure why that is.  Seems like we're fairly close to lining up the bolt holes.  I know the alignment isn't off on the friction disk.  I used an alignment tool and had to redo it once because it was very visibly off.  It's close enough now that I can see it's almost, if not entirely dead-on perfect with the indentation in the flywheel.  Even if it was a couple of millimeters off, it wouldn't keep us from stabbing it entirely, it would just get stuck a little bit out.  So I'm going to take the advice of trying to find some bolts to match up and make some locator studs.  I'm also going to devise an easy way of turning the flywheel a few millimeters at a time to adjust the spline position.  I really don't get why this is so difficult.  I've never had this much of an issue with any auto repair. I keep hoping I haven't goofed something up somehow but I can't figure what it would be.

Anyway, more updates to come as progress is made.

Paul @ Kippen

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Re: 1995 CSE Clutch Nightmare!
« Reply #14 on: 27 March 2012, 09:21:24 AM »
millster,

You shouldn't need to turn the flywheel to get the splines on the input to align with the plate ones.  With the 'box not in gear, the shaft will move easily enough to allow engagement.  Even if it didn't, you could stick it in gear and twist the drive shaft on the side you can get at.  You sometimes need to do that anyway to get the intermediate shaft to engage anyway.

Paul @ Kippen.