Author Topic: Sump Help?  (Read 834 times)

millster

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Sump Help?
« on: 21 June 2012, 02:34:39 AM »
Hi All,

I'm being bad and cross posting this with the "other" site.  I need an answer badly or I'd have just stuck here.  Here we go...

So I pulled the classic 9000 transmission replacement "stupid" and put too much torque on the bolt that passes through the sump without having put the spacer plate in place first.  My '95 CSE is now suffering from a sizable crack in the sump lug and leaks oil like a wounded animal.

I searched high and low for a decent used sump but they are challenging to locate in the States and the one that I did find may have a fatal flaw.
The seller claimed it was compatible with 1991-1998 9000s.  I should have known better as something changed between '93 and '95.  The major problem is that I do not know WHAT changed and whether there will be an issue if I fit this '93 sump to my '95 CSE? 

I'm hoping someone will have a definitive answer as I need to get the part exchanged/my money back if it's not going to work.  I also need to either get a new sump fitted or pull, clean and braze the existing one (that would be my LAST option).

Anybody have ideas?

wrighar

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Re: Sump Help?
« Reply #1 on: 21 June 2012, 07:44:51 AM »
The engines changed from long block to short block in MY 1994 (around september 1993).

Finding the older sort may be difficult now...

If the gearbox is a GMnnnnn type you have a up to 1993 longblock engine
If the gearbox is a FMnnnnn type you have a 1994 on shortblock engine

Shortblock engines came out with the NG900 and sumps from them should fit too from 1994 - 1999.

900009

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Re: Sump Help?
« Reply #2 on: 21 June 2012, 08:58:57 AM »
actually they don't, the engine in the 900ng (and 9-3) is mounted at an angle in the car where the 9000's engine stands straight up. As a result their sumps differ and can not be exchanged. You need a 9000 sump for the right engine (long/shortblock), no other will fit.

Would taking it to a welder not be an option? A good welder can do miracles with this material.

phoenix

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Re: Sump Help?
« Reply #3 on: 21 June 2012, 09:27:34 AM »
the engine in the 900ng (and 9-3) is mounted at an angle in the car where the 9000's engine stands straight up.

Not heard that before. The C900 was at an angle to allow the geabox to be mounted underneath.

millster

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Re: Sump Help?
« Reply #4 on: 21 June 2012, 08:54:59 PM »
Holy ultimate confusion...
Well, my 'box is an FM so I suppose that's a sign of bad things.  My question is what the fundamentals are of the change?  I had this issue when changing clutches as well as now with the sump.  With the clutch, I believe it was the number of splines on the shaft of the box that changed.
I also notice oil capacity increased from the MY91-93 to MY94-98 cars.  However, there appears (that I can find) no physical difference between the sumps that would account for this. Of course, 300ML is a fairly small amount but it has to be there somewhere.

The seller has offered me a refund of the money for the sump.  It was a small cost anyway, if I'm honest.  But I'll be out the cost of postage to send it back.  If it will work and I just need to modify something about it, that's fine.  I need to strip it down for cleaning anyway.  Based on the bits of ferrous metal beneath the baffle, I'm going to say the donor car suffered a rather traumatic end.

As for welding the existing pan, I can do that myself.  Brazing ally isn't technically difficult if you watch your temperatures.  The issue is that my 9K is my only car and I can't really afford the time of having it down.  I'm not sure how bad the total of the damage to the lug is.  It may well snap clean when I remove the sump.  In which case, I would need to braze it inside and out and will need to thoroughly clean it before doing so (as well as remove the epoxy I tried using to see if it would slow the leak until I could acquire a new sump).  For reference, don't try any epoxy.  Nothing can stand up to oil as much as they may claim otherwise.  The part would have to be removed, cleaned, completely dried and allowed to cure some 48 hours before refitting.  If you're going to do all of that, you may just as well braze it proper and be done with it for a lifetime.

So yes.  This whole thing is turning into a massive brain-ache.


millster

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Re: Sump Help?
« Reply #5 on: 22 June 2012, 03:12:22 AM »
Alrighty folks, the brain-ache is clearing.  I sourced a proper late-90s sump for a reasonable price and the seller who sent me the '93 has given me an entire refund without my needing to ship the sump back.  Certainly cannot complain about any single part of that.  Now I just need to get it installed once it comes in, get my turbo rebuilt and I'll be in good shape again!

millster

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Re: Sump Help?
« Reply #6 on: 30 June 2012, 04:07:29 AM »
Just an update that I hope will be helpful for others in the future.  I received my late-model sump and have compared it to the early-model.  The differences are rather subtle, but in use they would be significant.  The lug that mounts between the engine and the transmission is a good bit more stout on the late-model and given that a few of us have still managed to crack it, I would seriously question the safety of putting a less robust part into service improperly. 

So yes... the differences aren't immediately apparent and some of them are so subtle as to require calipers to measure the differences but they are there.  That said, if anyone needs an early-model sump I do have one.  As I was given a full refund for it, I would offer it for simply the cost of packaging and postage to pass along the good deed done for me.