>:(
Went to start my car this morning and did the usual thing; heated the plugs and initiiated the start as soon as the plug-heater light went off. Engine turned over easily and the car almost started but didn't quite catch.
On the second attempt I got no heater lights, and instead of any engine turning over got a strange sound - which is a bit like a chattering solenoid or something from under the bonnet. Or like a noisy fuel pump.
I also got the impression I could smell hot electrics almost instantly.
Several re-attempts made no difference.
Battery was replaced in Spring so should be ok. Admittedly the car has sat for over a week without going anywhere but has done this before, and always started with no struggle or fuss.
I just got in now 23:50 (having had to resort to making the journey in SWMBO's car), and thought I might give it another try.
This time, the exact same noise, even before I get to turn the switch fully! (I also notice there is no pre-heat lights) However the SID now displays 'Traction Control Failure, Contact Service'
This car has wanted for nothing and been well serviced since I have had it yet it continues to be letting me down, and I am starting to become very disillusioned with it.
If anyone has any thoughts on this latest blithering fiasco I'd be more than interested in hearing them. Thanks in advance.
sounds to me like a dead battery,the chattering as you call it(sounds more like rapid clicking) is the solenoid on the starter trying to engage,but because there isn't enough power in the battery it can't..
Battery.
Put on the headlamps and look at them while someone tried to start the car. If they dim, then you have a dead cell in the battery.
Happened to me recently, on a newish battery.
You get what you pay for in car batteries it seems.
Tried jumping it from a donor car?
Wow - two of you saying battery! I'm really surprised! It readily turned over at the first try. I did try putting the lights on to see if they dimmed but SWMBO could see no appreciable change (but she is technically very inept) as I was in a rush to head up to Salop I left it with the intention of sorting ot out today.
Not had a chance to try jumping it yet but will certainly give that a go later.
...the burning smell? Traction control failure caption?
Thanks for suggestions
Battery.
Had similar experience with what seemed a normal turnover that didn't catch then the distinctive chattering. The error codes could just be as a result of false signals.
Get one from eurocarparts if there's one near. Cheaper than other retail places and 15% off just now.
OK Update.
Have just given car a decent 20 mins of charge before even attempting to turn the key.
I have exactly the same symptoms:
No heat caption; No roatation on starter motor; and the strange noise.
I can't describe the noise as a clicking (as in a solenoid clicking) - it sounds more like an old MGB fuel pump running very quickly. (Maybe thats the problem! Who fitted that?? ;D )
EDIT:
The noise happens at the ignition 'ON' position, and NOT at the 'ST' position (as I would have expected. The noise also stops by itself after approx two seconds other than that, it seems dead
EDIT (2
Just started looking at fuses, and found fuse #4 (under bonnet) to be blown. I have changed that, and have the heater light back, but other than that, the same symptoms.
Mark - be very careful if you try a jump start. Even though I followed all the rules with mine over a year ago, I still managed to junk the alternator. No crossed jump leads, blah blah. After the event I read up carefully on jumping cars, and even after all my years with cars, my eyes were opened. Seems the best thing to do is to run from a donor car for enough time to charge up the poorly battery sufficiently before trying to start the car. Saves frying ECUs etc. (AND alternator diodes lol)
Very interesting that you have the chatter sound even before turning the key to the Start position. My money, along with our fellow contributors, is still on the battery. The chattering is possibly the various services, eg steering lock, trying to operate. However, as you have tried a charge, there may be a problem with the battery sufficiently serious so as not to accept a charge. Perhaps worth a good check of the terminals, ie disconnect, thorough clean, and refit. Shame we are about to make our duty Boxing Day trip to our daughter, or I would be scooting up to you to see what could be done.
Good luck
Pete
I'd suggest the most likely problems are either the wiring loom went on fire a bit or suffered from corrosion in one of the leads (common and requires a very methodical process to work out with a copy of WIS) or the ecu died (also common) both of these faults will cause the traction control failure message and no pre-heat light coming up.
I'd try and find the source of the noise first and report back, have a good look around with mk,1 eyeball for possible problems. Also, what voltage does the battery read over the terminals? If it's 12V then it's unlikely to be a failed cell in the battery as it'd read somewhere around 10V, even with a cell down the engine ECU will still power up (if the headlights work, does the remote locking, does the radio work too? if they do it's unlikely to be battery) but if you're getting no pre-heat light and a traction failure warning (one of the reasons this message can be generated is when the traction ecu can't talk to the engine ecu) I'd say wiring/relay fault or ecu failure both of which have been the majority of 9-3 failures to start in my experience and also for some unknown reason more common in the winter months!
Many thanks Audax
Just been speaking on phone with Petemate, and have blown x2 of those fuse #4. I dont have a manual but he said he thought fuse #4 points at ECU or associated wiring /plugs etc.
AA just arrived as I type ;D
I'll let them play with it and see if they find anything. Failing that its a case of having to get it to a good electrical specialist or Oxford SAAB - my nearest SAAB based service dept :-\
I just had a look at WIS fuse 4 heads towards various things they are:
power steering unit
mass air flow sensor
diesel fuel filter
B plug of engine ecu
traction control module
Quite what they do for each component I can't tell you without lots more reading so at this point, I'd be looking at someone who has a copy of WIS and knows how to use a multimeter or a good auto electrician who can follow all the wiring back and check which thing is faulty causing the fuses to blow or it could be going down to earth due to a chaffed wire somewhere. I could do it if the car was with me but realistically it's not going to be possible to give instructions on over the Internet. :(
Thanks Audax.
Nothing new since I spoke with you, but for the benefit of anyone else reading this thread....
AA man changed (and blew) several more fuses during his checks. Traction Control caption remained on. He also swapped a relay to try and prove or disprove that. but it made no difference.
Battery was totally fine.
He detected the 'burning smell' in the cockpit and reckoned it was coming from the ignition switch area. Pulling up the trim around the gear-lever showed nothing obvious.
He tested the wiring as far as he could, but could not measure the current blowing the fuse, without exposing the ECU to a potential overload.
Although his diagnostics were not conclusive, he did suggest that it pointed at the ignition switch itself, or wiring in that area, but that a further investigation was required.
The car has been dropped off at Oxford SAAB whom I will call ASAP tomorrow morning
:( :( :(
It could be the wiring from the ignition switch chaffing under there or power feeding back into the switch unit itself... hopefully the fuse was blowing before it melted that too :o
Pure speculation, but - bad main earth connection/cable somewhere? Similar symptoms to bad battery, plus electrical burning smell (had this experience with an MGB GT once)
A bad earth wouldn't cause it to blow fuse 4, this side of things is switched directly off from the battery (pretty much).
I called SAAB this morning and got to talk with the techie doing the job, giving him the complete sequence of events first thing this morning for which he was grateful with and also agreed with, including the diagnosis route AA man took as well as many of the comments made here.
They have just called back and believe there is a fault with the ignition switch itself however, they can't prove this until they can get one.... So I wont see the car back until at least after the 7th Jan ::) :-\
Good that you were able to speak to the bod doing the job. It does seem quite likely now that the switch is the culprit. Maybe the 'electric' burning smell is some wiring in the switch area connected (pun) with the problem, and if so, and it hasn't spread too far, I would imagine/hope (stand to be corrected of course) that those main wires will be standard stuff and not Canbus, therefore hopefully repairable.
It would seem that this problem has plagued the car from some time ago, considering that it has eaten several No 4 fuses already on a prior occasion!
Best of luck Mark.
Pete
Ignition switches wear out on most cars after 10 years. If you think how many times a day you might use it to start the car, you might be surprised. Contacts get sloppy, and sparking can easily send voltage spikes in all directions. Nice to know the battery is good. But you should be seeing at least 14.2 volts across the terminals, not 12.
On an Astra a few years ago, I had to get a small part of the wiring loom replaced and the dealer spent 4 hours diagnosing it and repairing. Clicky noises like you have and blown fuses too.
That sorted it, along with a fresh ignition barrel. Common problem in that car too.
Alternator was at risk too.
All the same GM stuff in these cars around that era.
Quote from: Petemate on 28 December 2012, 09:58:08 AM
It would seem that this problem has plagued the car from some time ago, considering that it has eaten several No 4 fuses already on a prior occasion!
Nah it was the #8 fuse before. That just stopped the car dead. Only the tenacity of AA man fitting and blowing five in a row until one stuck cured the problem which has never reccured since.
You know, although water under the bridge now, a couple of weeks ago the ignition switch 'felt funny'. I can't explain in what way it felt funny - it just didnt feel the same, but at the time I thought it was just me, and it was only on th eone occasion, so maybe something inside had started to give up the ghost then. But even now with it in it's broken down state, the switch still felt okay.
Thanks for your inputs and comments. I'll let you know if there are any further developments ??? ::)
I'd be surprised if it was solely the ignition switch if fuse 4 was blowing as the ignition switch only energizes the circuits beneath it via relays. Even so the ignition switch in the 9-3 is a bit of a weak point but they are at least cheap. Another common problem is that the wiring to the ignition switch where it's cable tied onto part of the under dash frame is that it wears through the insulation and causes shorts there.
Quote from: Max Headroom on 28 December 2012, 11:59:30 AM
Nah it was the #8 fuse before.
Oops - sorry Mark
Quote from: Audax on 28 December 2012, 12:20:41 PM
I'd be surprised if it was solely the ignition switch if fuse 4 was blowing as the ignition switch only energizes the circuits beneath it via relays. Even so the ignition switch in the 9-3 is a bit of a weak point but they are at least cheap. Another common problem is that the wiring to the ignition switch where it's cable tied onto part of the under dash frame is that it wears through the insulation and causes shorts there.
That could well be it Audax - perhaps a switch plus a loom repair?
Quote from: nine-fiver on 28 December 2012, 11:31:35 AMBut you should be seeing at least 14.2 volts across the terminals, not 12.
you only see 14v+ when the engine is running,which is the charging voltage.
the ism contains a circuit board..as it's more than just a switch.
Quote from: Petemate on 28 December 2012, 03:24:31 PM
That could well be it Audax - perhaps a switch plus a loom repair?
Possibly, it's all speculation on our part I'm just working off my understanding of the problem in hand and the wiring loom diagrams, it could well be something else. I just hope it isn't 1 switch, then a wiring loom repair and another switch to replace the new one that just got fried ;)
Quote from: Audax on 28 December 2012, 12:20:41 PM
Another common problem is that the wiring to the ignition switch where it's cable tied onto part of the under dash frame is that it wears through the insulation and causes shorts there.
Yes I could quite understand that - particularly on a convertible that shakes around more :(
Astra switches were known to burn out. If someone could check the Vauxhall/Opel/Saab part numbers it would not surprise me to find it was the same switching unit. And they also went a bit 'funny' just before the spring-return let go, and the contacts then arcing out. Some even burnt badly enough to smoke out the cabin, with associated minor loom issues.
Which is why I sold mine.
Quote from: nine-fiver on 29 December 2012, 08:19:26 AM
Astra switches were known to burn out. If someone could check the Vauxhall/Opel/Saab part numbers it would not surprise me to find it was the same switching unit.
No, they're not the same, the ignition switch on the 9-3 is the entire unit where you put the keyfob into and twist. It's a complete unit as there's no separate barrel. 9-3 units don't burn out they just slowly break down over time. Having replaced more than my fair share I suspect that one common problem is soft drink spills and other detritus find their way into the unit and cause contact problems. I replaced a unit on one car that appeared to have an immaculate interior, as I removed more of the central console there was a thin layer of liquid oil behind every surface. I realised that it was cooking fat from McDonalds food when I looked in the glove box and found heaps of paper napkins and sauce cartons in there... despite the owner keeping the car clean it had still got behind every surface including the ignition switch :o
Oooh Yukk :o
I had more or less the same problem with mine, minus the blown fuse (I have an 05 2ltr Aero Turbo petrol). I had the same noise as you and also when bump started it would run perfectly but when trying to start with the key or a battery booster, no joy.
Replaced - battery, alternator, starter and ignition switch. My usual garage tried everything, my local SAAB dealership was a waste of time and just kept insisting it was the battery.
Got a dedicated car electrician to look at it in the end and he reckoned it was a faulty relay, and simply bypassed it with 6 inches and 50p worth of electrical wire and I've never had a problem since!!
Struth - that sounds like it was an expensive diagnosis!
...At least until the 50 penceworth of cable!
FINALLY!
...and this smacks of an inpending spares problem for SAABs...
The problem was the ignition switch which was duly cx'd. However a new one was unavailable! So a second hand one from a 3 month old vehicle was sourced.
Hopefully this car is not going to give me any further bother for some time - however I'm off to the Middle East for two months on the 22nd (more SAAB hunting in Bahrain) so won't be able to prove anything until my return.
Glad it is now sorted Mark. But not good that a switch was unavailable. I've been trawling the 'net in various websites for Saab parts, both s/h and new/NOS, and there is quite a bit out there but some are silly prices.
I wonder if companies like Neo will up their game now - they were extremely useful and good VFM when my aircon went West. They have a lot of parts in stock.
There was talk of the CIM being suspect (as I understand it, it's is part of the steering lock mechanism) that was £450(!!!!) and, according to Oxford more worryingly, completely unavailable!
So it beggars the question - where is the spares backup we were all assured of when SAAB folded?
After a gentleman kindly rear ended my car, repairer couldn't get hold of a rear light cluster for a 2009 estate - not a particularly specialist part! - anywhere. Ended up getting a s/h one. Not encouraging and suggests higher than ever risk of write off a after accidents as low values and scarce parts conspire together.
Sorry to hear of your problems Max but that was another reason for selling my 9-5 as I was worried parts would become unavailable or over priced.
Before selling mine I noticed the xenon's would flicker up and down a bit when stationary making wonder if the pins on the loom were about to give up. I had one done when I bought the car and therefore suspect the other was on way out. Last year they were hard to get hold of so what's it like now and with no levelling system the car would surely fail MOT next time around????
As mentioned it makes you wonder now if Neo's will up their prices knowing many will rely on them?
Hope you find a few more in Bahrain..................:)
9-3 parts like the CIM and ignition switch have had poor/sporadic availability for at least 2 years now. The 9-5 doesn't have anything that is one use only (apart from maybe the airbag control modules but they hardly fail) and is quite reliable overall with the common parts being available third party so parts availability shouldn't be so much of a problem.